Px7 disk, P2 pins, and S74 silks question–Rustlers

[nolemmings]

Can anyone confirm for me the existence of a Boston National Leaguer who is not designated as a Rustler in the Px7 disk, P2 pins, and S74 silks sets? Any Boston Doves, Braves or just Nationals?

It dawned on me that it has long been known the team was the Rustlers only for the 1911 season, named after their owner, who acquired the team in December 1910 and died almost a year later. Nonetheless, these sets are generally checklisted as having been issued as early as 1909 or 1910. I have contacted a couple of collectors who confirm that all of their Boston players from the senior circuit are tagged as Rustlers, and the hobby resources I have checked say the same. It seems to me that either these were not produced at all until 1911, or if they were, some deliberate choice was made to exclude all Boston NLers until a subsequent printing in 1911. The latter makes little sense, and while the team at that time was horrid, one would expect at least one representative to be included in the initial offering.

Excuse me if this has been discussed before, but if so I could not find it. So can anyone confirm a non-Rustler from these sets or offer some explanations as why these are not a 1911 and early 1912 issue?

[spec]

Todd,
I checked all the Boston-NL P2s and PX7s and all carry the nickname Rustlers. In PX7 that includes Cy Young, who didn't move from Cleveland to Boston until Aug. 19, 1911.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Bob, especially for the info on P2. The Px7 Young as Rustler is relevant, because he does not appear in the set with any other team, but does show with Cleveland in the P2 and S74 sets. Still and of course, he was with Cleveland for most of 1911, so those sets could have printed earlier that year.

Notably, one of the three other Rustlers in the px7 set, Al Bridwell, also came to Boston during the 1911 season and his disk shows Rustlers, unlike his pin and silk that have him on the Giants. However, the other two Px7 Rustlers, Ferguson and Mattern, were with Boston all three years 1909-11, so their disks would have claimed a different Boston name if issued prior to 1911. They do not. Bridwell was traded to Boston July 22, 1911, so like Cy Young his silk and pins could have been produced earlier that year.

I am getting more and more confident that the Px7s were first produced in 1911, and will add info about that later. However, because I do not collect the silks and pins actively, I am hopeful others like Spec will chime in with their findings and opinions about those sets. This could also provide insight as to the production timeline for T205. I also would invite comment about T332 Helmar stamps, which are considered to be from 1911 and which do show Cy and Bridwell with their Rustler designations.

Thanks for your consideration.

[BobC]

Hi Todd,

I can positively confirm that there are no players listed in either the S74-1 white silks or the S74-2 colored silks that played for the National League team in Boston listed as anything other than as Rustlers. Which brings up some interesting questions as to when these two sets were originally distributed, in conjunction with the distribution dates for the other sets you were also looking at.

The S74-1 white silks were definitely issued before the S74-2 colored version silks, based on some of the changes between players/teams shown between the two sets. When I first started collecting silks I seem to remember hearing somewhere that the white version silks were possibly first distributed in 1909, but believe that has been satisfactorily disproved and sometime in 1910 is the accepted start date. So the current thinking is that the white silks were distributed in 1910-11, and the colored version silks started distribution in 1911. And for reference, the T205 set has been determined to have a 1911 start date as well.

There are a few players that help to bear this out. First is Harry Steinfeldt, who was with the Cubs from 10/24/1905 until he was sold to St. Paul of the American Association on 4/5/1911. St. Paul subsequently turned around and then traded Harry to the Boston Rustlers on 5/25/1911. The Rustlers then released him on 12/16/1911, and he never played in the majors again. Harry is shown on the white version silks as a Cub, and then only as a Rustler on the colored version silks. (There are some S74-1 checklists that indicate there should also be a white version silk of Steinfeldt with the Rustlers, but that has since been proven that one does not exist.) And in the T205 set, Steinfeldt is also only shown as a Cub, the same as in the colored silks.

There is then a trade directly between the Cubs and Rustlers that took place on 6/10/1911 that involved several players, but for our purposes, most notably Johnny Kling and Peaches Graham. Kling went from the Cubs to the Rustlers, and Graham just the opposite. In the white version silks, Graham is shown with the Rustlers while there is no white version silk of Kling at all. (As with Steinfeldt, there are some checklists that were showing a second white version silk for Graham with the Cubs, but that has also been pretty much proven to not exist either.) Then in the S74-2 colored version silks, Kling is shown only with the Rustlers, and Graham only with the Cubs. And in the T205 set, Kling is also only shown as a Rustler, but interestingly enough, Peaches Graham is shown on two different cards as both a Cub and a Rustler.

Because of the dates of these trades it seems fairly certain that the S74-2 colored version silks didn't start getting produced till at least the middle to latter part of 1911. And because of the two different Graham cards in the T205 set, it would seem to indicate that the T205 set was released early in 1911. Most likely after the S74-1 white version silks started being produced, but before the S74-2 colored version silks started coming out.

One last item that may have some relevance is that it seems odd that Kling was not issued as a white silk, but was in the colored version silks. I know they expanded the number of subjects in the white version silks from around 90 to the 120 that appear in the colored version silks, but I wonder if the fact that Kling took off the entire 1909 season had anything to do with them not putting him in the S74-1 white version silks? Interesting thing to note is that he took a year's leave of absence after he ended up winning the world's pocket billiards championship after the 1908 baseball season ended. He also invested in a hotel and billiard emporium in his hometown of Kansas City, MO and worked on getting that going during the year off. When he didn't repeat as billiard champion at the end of 1909 he apparently went back to play for the Cubs in 1910 then.

Hope this helps with your research.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Bob. Your findings verify what I learned from another avid s74 collector as to the Rustlers. Frankly, I have long been skeptical that Old Mill churned out T206, the entire T210 series, and S74 Silks (plus reportedly some non-baseball cards) all in 1910.

As for the Px7 Domino disk set, my research thus far shows all but two of the 129 subjects are designated with the teams they played for at least part of the 1911 season. The exceptions are Eddie Phelps, who appears as a Cardinal but who was sold to Toronto in mid-December,1910, and Sam Leever, aging Pirate pitcher whose disk says Pittsburgh but who soured on his contract offer in 1911 Spring Training and chose to play for Minneapolis. An early 1911 production date would at least explain the inclusion of Leever. As for Phelps, he had been the Cardinals starter in 1910 and enjoyed one of his better seasons; moreover, he would return to the big leagues in 1912 and 1913, so there was still gas in the tank. Because nearly all pre-war card sets include the odd subject who retired or had been exiled to the minor-leagues, it does not seem an egregious error to have included Phelps in the PX7 roster in 1911.

There are other indicators of a 1911 first-production date for the disks. In addition to Cy Young already discussed, Clark Griffith is shown only with the Senators, where he signed in October 1911. His pin and silk show him with the Reds, where he managed through September. Why no earlier disk of Griff (or Cy)? Paddy Livingston was on the A's for the 1909-1911 seasons, then sold to Cleveland in December, 1911. Both of his disks put him on the Naps.

Jack Rowan is interesting. He was traded with Dode Paskert from the Reds to Phillies in November, 1910, but only lasted a matter of months in Philly before moving on to the Cubs in August, 1911. Paskert's disks show him with the Phillies, again supporting a 1911 issuance, but both of Rowan's PX7 offerings are with the Cubs, suggesting a much later start for the set that year.

The only major outlier to the 1911 start date is Pat Moran, whose thin-faced disk states he is a Cub. For years this has been used as the measuring stick for concluding that the set began in 1909, the last time Moran played in a Cubs game. I believe the disk is simply a “mis-corrected error” or oversight by the producer. Of the seven variations known to PX7, six of the "thin-faced" versions either correct or update information for the subject, suggesting they were printed after the full-faced variety. Moran goes the other way, for some unknown reason, taking his correct 1910-11 info and placing him back on the Cubs from 1909. A head scratcher of sorts, but since this is the only significant obstacle to finding a 1911 origin for the disks, I choose to consider it a fluke-- for now anyway.

[RCMcKenzie]

I was looking at all the s74's in Hunt's the other day. I bid on the Red Suns and was the underbidder. I just assumed T205's came first, and T202 and S74 and Art stamps came later.