Completing the t218 Master Set Checklist - Cash Reward for proof of missing cards

[G1911]

I am still offering a cash reward gift (I’ll PayPal you through F&F, PM me your PayPal email) for reasonable photographic evidence that any of the following cards exist (to the first person to provide said reasonable proof for any specific card - if the card is up live on eBay I've seen it).


Cards that do not exist - Series 1 - $25 Reward
NA Robert Cloughan (Error), Hassan, Factory 30
NA Robert Cloughan (Error), Hassan, Factory 649
NA S.P. Gillis (Variation), Hassan, Factory 30
NA S.P. Gillis (Variation), Hassan, Factory 649
NA H.J. Handy, Hassan, Factory 30
NA H.J. Handy, Hassan, Factory 649
NA Jack Johnson (Green), Mecca, Factory 30
NA C.D. Trudenbach (Error), Hassan, Factory 30
NA C.D. Trudenbach (Error), Hassan, Factory 649

Cards that do not exist - Series 2 - $25 Reward
NA Joe Jeanette (One N), Hassan, Series 2, Factory 30
NA Joe Jeanette (One N), Hassan, Series 2, Factory 649
NA Joe Jeanette (One N), Mecca, Series 2, Factory 30
NA Joe Jeanette (One N), Mecca, Series 2, Factory 649
NA Joe Jeanette (One N), Tolstoi
NA Joe Jeannette (Two N’s), Hassan, Factory 30
NA Jack Johnson (Blue), Hassan, Factory 30
NA Jack Johnson (Green), Tolstoi


Cards that have not yet surfaced - Series 3 - $15 Reward:
NA “Johnny” Hayes, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 30
NA “Johnny” Hayes, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 649
NA Abel Kiviat, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 30
NA Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 30
NA Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 649
NA James Rector, Mecca “Series of Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters,” Factory 30

[scooter729]

I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.

[DaveW]

Scott,
I’ve always thought that the C52 cards are no different than the Tolstoi cards - same fronts and text as the T218 cards but with a different brand (or no brand for the C52s). I think they are all really just a part of the T218 group. A better question is how do we know they were put out by the Imperial Tobacco company? Do you have any info on that? There’s nothing on the card to indicate that. I think that they were probably printed by American Lithograph as a generic set and sold to smaller brands (maybe just in Canada?). And why are there just 9 of the Series 2 cards but 50 each of Series 1 and 3?
- Dave

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that I’ve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave

[Marslife]

Hey There!

Checked my 310 cards, no reward money due to me :-(

good news for the Master Set :-)

TTYL!

Cliff

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that I’ve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave

I've got no PM or private reports yet, but if they do exist, hoping this will draw out the proof!


I'm pretty confident on the missing green Johnsons, 100% on the Handy's I've been looking for for years. I suspect the Fact. 30 series 3 track guys that are known with a 649 back may be out there, as some of the cards with this caption are fairly common (like Sellen) and others are very scarce (like Holmer).


I did not include it, but the other theoretical card is the Cloughan error, with a Mecca 30 back. I think this is the one most likely to surface, but if it does exist, almost certainly is the rarest single card in the set.

[scooter729]

For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.

I have one batch that came from Virginia, from a descendant of an original child collector of the 1910 period. Another batch came came with backstamps of the name of the presumed early collector, mixed C52 and Mecca cards. 3 more came from New York, and some from Canadian sellers but I'm not sure that's where the cards actually originated and they didn't wander around in the last hundred years. 70 C52's at once is one heck of a buy!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.

I've flip-flopped on this issue several times, and have struggled to identify much of any evidence about the particulars of this set beyond the checklist. I'm collecting a C52 run along with my T218 set, though I'm only at ~35 cards or so.


First, like Dave, I question whether this was even a Canadian issue. It seems to me the primary evidence it is Canadian is that A) it has card numbers (which Imperial Tobacco often did), and B) that there is no factory number on the back (as required by American law, but in no other nation), which are both very circumstantial and could lead to many other conclusions too. I know of some sourced from Canada, but some of mine have come from original collections in the American south too, mixed with Mecca backs. I'm not aware of any real evidence that the set is indeed Canadian, though it very well may be true. I don't think the evidence is enough to assume Burdick's designation as a Canadian set is true.


To me, the key points for considering it part of T218 is that it was clearly printed by American Lithographic around the time of the T218 set (most 'reprint' tobacco sets like T223, T215 etc. have much lower quality images, as the original printing stones/plates wore down), sharing the same artwork. The key evidence against is that the checklist of the first series of C52 does not align with T218.


I think it is safe to say C52 series 1 was not printed concurrently with T218. A) It is missing Handy, who was released with T218-1 during its initial Mecca run and then pulled, and B) card #1 is Jack Johnson (Green), who was not printed in the initial run of T218-1 but added to the issue part way through (though I think a preponderance of the evidence suggests this actually has nothing to do with Handy being pulled, as is often said, as, for starters, both cards are very common with a Mecca 649 back). C) The 9 T218-2 cards that appear with duplicate numbers in the first series of C52.


To me, with the evidence available, it is a separate set, but closely related cousin, like T219. T219 was printed in the same period as T218, but not at the same time, and thus, is a cousin set instead of a back variation. I think there is a separation between the 3 sets based on A) the series composition being different and B) that they were printed at different times. More evidence about the actual time of printing and how/where/why the C52 backs were issued could easily change this conclusion, in my personal opinion.

[wisdom132000]

Warshaw's last boxing book states that Red Cross are more rare. I have seen more Red Cross sold during the last 20 years. SGC population report has it real close. What do you guys think?

[wisdom132000]

Warshaw's last boxing book states that Red Cross are more rare. I have seen more Red Cross sold during the last 20 years. SGC population report has it real close. What do you guys think?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wisdom132000

Warshaw's last boxing book states that Red Cross are more rare. I have seen more Red Cross sold during the last 20 years. SGC population report has it real close. What do you guys think?

I think Red Cross is scarcer on the whole. I suspect the Tolstoi's have 3 different levels of scarcity, representing two different sheets and the super printing of the Jack Johnson (and probably Jeffries) card, which is a pretty easy card. The tougher half of the Tolstoi's I don't think are hugely different from the Red Crosses. Tolstoi's have tended to appear as singles or a few at a time, most Red Crosses seem to have come from large big batch finds and sales, centering them in fewer collections.

Then again, collectors have shown an inability to correctly discern rarity. When scarcity and SP's have been decided by collectors before subsequent 100% proof of production, collector conclusions have been shown to be wrong almost every time. 1955 All American, 1957 Topps football, 1962 Topps football, 1966 Topps highs, authorities determined the short prints through their judgements of what was tough and what was not, and these lists did not match up to subsequent sheet finds and recreations. I would not declare with certainty here (beyond the obvious that Tolstoi is a lot harder than Mecca and Hassan on the whole), as I am surely no better a judge than anyone else has proven and the problem of biased samples and surveys plagues my attempts to try and come to a data based conclusion on these points. I do know I would trade a Tolstoi for a Red Cross, but I wouldn't trade a Red Cross for a Tolstoi.

T219's are mid 1911 at the earliest.