Would this kind of grading company interest you?

[bbcard1]

I am in the midst of a good career as a partner with a nice smaller firm, so I'm not going to drop everything to pursue this, but if the costs were comparable to the standard grading companies (the big ones) how would you feel about a TPGC that used laser measures to verify cards sizes and detect trimming irregularities and scanners to verify surface quality and color? I would think that that sort of equipment exists and is not prohibitively expensive.

[Leon]

Anything that makes grading more accurate would be an improvement.

[marzoumanian]

Quick story. I know a vintage card dealer whose son is a computer software expert. A number of years ago father and son approached PSA and made it clear that the software to measure a baseball card in ALL the ways imaginable could be easily developed (taking out the human element completely).
PSA immediately rejected the idea of pursuing this. Is anyone surprised? If anything is going to change, it's going to be through technology and a NEW company, not the current ones that exist today, for obvious reasons.

Thank you and take care.

[yanksfan09]

I don’t understand how this sort of technology could account for natural legitimate size variances of issues. Especially with pre war and regional type issues. Many were factory cut with some size variation that are not trimmed. I’m also not convinced a computer program could detect other issues like pressing, or chemical baths etc. I guess humans aren’t doing the job well enough either but perhaps some sort of combo of AI and human eyes could be an improvement. It really all comes down to the integrity of the people in the company and the amount of time and effort put into each submission.

Computer laser measurement for modern standard size cards would probably work well but it gets a lot tricky with all the oddball sized pre war cards, with different methods of how they were cut and distrubuted.

[yanksfan09]

Also using a very in-depth technological process on each card I would think could be time consuming and more expensive , but maybe could be viable for higher end submissions. I just can’t see this type of effort going into every bulk $8 submission.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

I don’t understand how this sort of technology could account for natural legitimate size variances of issues. Especially with pre war and regional type issues. Many were factory cut with some size variation that are not trimmed. I’m also not convinced a computer program could detect other issues like pressing, or chemical baths etc. I guess humans aren’t doing the job well enough either but perhaps some sort of combo of AI and human eyes could be an improvement. It really all comes down to the integrity of the people in the company and the amount of time and effort put into each submission.

Computer laser measurement for modern standard size cards would probably work well but it gets a lot tricky with all the oddball sized pre war cards, with different methods of how they were cut and distrubuted.

Also many doctored cards measure just fine, they are soaked and pressed to stretch them before being trimmed.

Edit to add I see David already made this point and he is absolutely right.

[JoeDfan]

What if the technology measured the card and printed out the % tolerance on the label (unsightly, maybe on a web site)?
For example, a 2" wide card measures 1.97"; then the collector knows exactly what they are buying.

[D.P.Johnson]

If the new grading company could "prove" their system was able to determine authenticity and detect alterations I would be interested.

I think if the new company was able to show through side by side comparisons (or whatever) their system found altered cards the other TPGs couldn't that could be a huge selling point.

[vintagetoppsguy]

In 2019, machines can't even cut 2019 Topps product correctly, so you think machines can measure a card correctly? Cards can be stretched to a larger size then cut back down to normal size. What's the solution for that?

Here's a real solution. Quit relying on machines, TPGs or anything else and educate yourself on what alterations to look for. I'm proud to say I don't own an altered card in my collection. Never have, never will. I'm not saying I've never bought one, I think we all have. But those purchases were quickly identified and returned to the seller.

[barrysloate]

I believe some type of technology is inevitable, because what this debacle has proven is humans are not able to do this properly. Even if they could allot more time to examine each card, it's possible that the human eye is unable to detect these alterations, while some kind of infrared light might be able to do so quite easily.

Somebody needs to figure this out because the current system is unacceptable.

[marzoumanian]

I agree, DP Johnson. What it is going to take, in my humble opinion, is a multimillionaire who is also a big card collector, learning that he has been burned by the likes of Gary Moser. Perhaps multiple times. That individual is going to be SO angry that he will step up and offer/spend the start-up money needed to get the process started. It might take 3-5 years and, yes, he would have to prove that the technology works (perhaps by setting up a booth at the NSCC) by showing multiple examples. But that is the only way. The technology exists TODAY. I know it has already been stated that people with big bucks don't care about this issue because their cards have been slabbed and they don't want to admit that they have been duped. Maybe that's true. Maybe I'm naive. Time will tell. Who is going to step up? We shall see.

Thank you.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

If the new grading company could "prove" their system was able to determine authenticity and detect alterations I would be interested.

I think if the new company was able to show through side by side comparisons (or whatever) their system found altered cards the other TPGs couldn't that could be a huge selling point.

I was thinking the same thing. Demonstrate conclusively how the new system is superior by catching alterations the other companies are currently missing.

Regarding the failings of people and the human eye, I'm thinking if you have 20 graders, at any given time one or two might be new at the job, or tired, or have eye strain at the end of another long day squinting at cards. Machines don't get tired so their performance won't degrade, or vary as, say, from one individual grader to another.

As to pressing before trimming, why not add measuring card thickness too, including thickness uniformity (is the card thinner at the corners.) And it might sound silly, and maybe it is, but even weighing cards might detect paper loss from trimming. Obviously, tolerances for various issues would need to be established, since cards were not produced with rigorous quality/consistency controls.

But yes, if a new grading company came along with the commitment to constantly look for new ways to improve their process, that is what's needed. Black light, or infrared, or whatever........

It might be some years from now, but I believe eventually there will be a tool one will be able to pass over a surface (like a baseball card) and the tool will be able to perform carbon dating without damaging the card at all. So if there is anything modern on a vintage card besides a human fingerprint, someday it should be detectable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

People love to talk about technology. Has anyone here seen a machine, computer, device, whatever, reliably authenticate and grade a card? Until that happens, with due respect, it just feels like feel-good talk to me.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

Quick story. I know a vintage card dealer whose son is a computer software expert. A number of years ago father and son approached PSA and made it clear that the software to measure a baseball card in ALL the ways imaginable could be easily developed (taking out the human element completely).
PSA immediately rejected the idea of pursuing this. Is anyone surprised? If anything is going to change, it's going to be through technology and a NEW company, not the current ones that exist today, for obvious reasons.

Thank you and take care.

I share this opinion and have stated it many times here on Net54

[murphy8276]

I would greatly appreciate it if PSA would have deemed these scammers' cards as Altered or Trimmed and not cards that I know for 100% fact were untouched to be minsize/EOT/ or the dreaded Altered Stock. Yet, I still continue to submit for their opinions, mostly for monetary value reasons.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I am in the midst of a good career as a partner with a nice smaller firm, so I'm not going to drop everything to pursue this, but if the costs were comparable to the standard grading companies (the big ones) how would you feel about a TPGC that used laser measures to verify cards sizes and detect trimming irregularities and scanners to verify surface quality and color? I would think that that sort of equipment exists and is not prohibitively expensive.

This scenario is almost certain to either replace or enhance the current system. PSA and Beckett will want to continue to have a human who can disregard the data and slap a preferential grade on for their friends.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Bram99

This scenario is almost certain to either replace or enhance the current system. PSA and Beckett will want to continue to have a human who can disregard the data and slap a preferential grade on for their friends.

And you think that couldn't happen in a tech heavy company?
All it takes is someone with access and the authorizations to change the database.

I'm not crazy about the whole "use technology to solve every problem" concept.
It becomes just a different crutch than the current system. And one that's just as easily broken.