PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Brent Huigens]

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

[CuriousGeorge]

Well that’s a start.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rhetorical question, but why have you been selling them for at least a decade?

Relatedly, I guess you lied two years ago when you told me and Leon that Gary had pretty much retired. According to what you told us, he only "graded" a card "once in a while." Ha.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Have all Moser related cards been removed from the current ongoing auction?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Have all Moser related cards been removed from the current ongoing auction?

Do you believe anything this man says at this point?

[CobbSpikedMe]

nope

[Fuddjcal]

Ouch. You said you would do this 3 weeks ago but then the scam continues. Why is that? You have a long history of blowing smoke up peoples a***

While I appreciate what you are trying to do, I gave you a pass 3 weeks ago. Then you let it continue until your are pretty much forced to just today?

Personally, I hope you get sued by PSA.

I will reserve the right to change my opinion of you but as for now, you are neck deep in quicksand my handsome friend and the play stands as called on the field. Good Luck Brent Mastro.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement.

I think this line alone makes it pretty clear how quickly this is all moving.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I think this line alone makes it pretty clear how quickly this is all moving.

Sounds like they are getting ready to throw Moser under the bus and save their own asses.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Sounds like they are getting ready to throw Moser under the bus and save their own asses.

And PSA. I was sort of wondering who would be sacrificed to keep them going. My money was on some poor new hire grader - yet another reason why I almost never bet on anything. (Of course, it's not over yet... )

[CuriousGeorge]

Where’s the guy who was laying 4:1?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by steve B

And PSA. I was sort of wondering who would be sacrificed to keep them going. My money was on some poor new hire grader - yet another reason why I almost never bet on anything. (Of course, it's not over yet... )

I don't know. It feels, to me, that they are partnering up with PSA as they work with law enforcement together. They will claim ignorance to the whole thing and blame Moser for doing all the fraud on his own. Like you, I almost never bet on anything though.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I don't know. It feels, to me, that they are partnering up with PSA as they work with law enforcement together.

I guess that's one theory...

They do not appear to have published their apology on the PSA website.

I haven't been able to find any posts from them in the Collectors Universe forum. That forum overall is much less active than here or Blowout, but I'm pretty sure they've posted there before. Maybe I'm just missing it, if someone can find it let me know and I'll revise this.

I don't see any PWCC banners anywhere on the PSA site. Pretty sure they used to be there.

I don't see any PWCC banners on the VCP site, or in the "Auction want list" section on the home page. Pretty sure they used to be there.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities.

Sounds like an attorney has been hired.

[111gecko]

Wondering how many people are thinking it might me a good idea to empty the “vault” about now...

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Do you know Gary Moser? - "Yes"
Do you accept consignments from Gary Moser? - "Yes"

Are there any Moser consigned cards in the current auction?
Did you submit cards to any TPGs on behalf of Gary Moser?
Did you accept bids from Gary Moser?
If so, did you ever cross check items Gary Moser won against items he consigned?
Did you buy cards on your account, and then resell them in your own auctions?
If so, was that disclosed in the auctions?

This is a good start, I reserve the right to ask additional follow ups depending on the answers.

[iowadoc77]

Good start with those questions. Not sure we can handle the truth but I think we know what it is

[perezfan]

[QUOTE=Brent Huigens; We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light...[/QUOTE]

1. “Presently Working with PSA”...
That is hardly new news. You’ve been “working” with them for a long time.

2. “Ensure all affected cards are brought to light”...
What a joke! It’s a tad late for that. The virus has spread way beyond PWCC’s control or any means that law enforcement can employ to contain them all. They are in circulation now, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of bogus cards in PSA slabs that will never be fully accounted for.

Unless PSA goes down with you, these cards will continue to be sold and traded at a premium, to unknowing innocent victims. You let the cat out of the bag, and it is never coming back in.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

[pgconboy]

This entire situation looks incredibly dire.

[Rhotchkiss]

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

[swarmee]

Cancel the entire auction, and sell your vaults to cover the losses.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

Let’s make a note of whether that card is indeed removed. If that auction is terminated, then maybe that’s a tiny first step in the right direction.

[AddieJoss]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

[swarmee]

"WE'RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER LIST!" CaptainSpaulding on BO says that he has another 16 submissions tied to this scandal.

Brent, how do you like my new PSA slogan: "IN ON IT OR IMPOTENT?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

That's so sweet of him after polluting the hobby with altered cards for a decade and a half or however long it's been.

Why not just let bygones be bygones and we'll all get along, eh?

[bounce]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

[pgconboy]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

I'd bet my house that internet detectives will find cards missing from any list they provide unless its a giant .csv file of every card ever sold.

[swarmee]

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

Hi Peter - yes, I've seen those. I've pretty much read every post of every relevant thread. I contributed a very small amount of the research to find original sales of some of the cards. Big kudos to those other blowout guys, though - they deserve all the credit.

I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why.

#1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy.

#2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event.

#3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it.

So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well.

There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

Is the near future here yet?
How long does it take to print a list of cards connected to Gary Moser?

[swarmee]

Still no word from PSA or PWCC on which law enforcement agency(ies) they claim to be working with.

[Republicaninmass]

"1952 Bowman Stan Musial #196 PSA 9 to 10: Value gain of $25,300.03"

Ouch, seem to remember someone posting about buying this card.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Is the near future here yet?
How long does it take to print a list of cards connected to Gary Moser?

probably at least a month. Imagine 1000 cards 4 times a year for 15 years... That's 1 guy. PWCC is VERY CROOKED. Someone will wipe the glossy white smiles off the faces of those 2 imbeciles

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Too late

[Exhibitman]

[Fballguy]

Probably the most poetic post I've seen here. Bravo.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[swarmee]

Wow those guys on the PSA board are clueless. They've read about 3 total posts and not the 20+ threads on this scam and are defending PWCC... but when the place is moderated the way it's moderated, no surprise.
"They feed me dirt and keep me in the dark!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wow those guys on the PSA board are clueless. They've read about 3 total posts and not the 20+ threads on this scam and are defending PWCC... but when the place is moderated the way it's moderated, no surprise.
"They feed me dirt and keep me in the dark!"

Happens here all the time John. People intentionally don't inform themselves, then pontificate.

[joshuanip]

I may be in the minority, but I hope Brent / PSA rebounds from this and criminal charges will be pressed on the card docs. People will be angry if this is the result because of the smoking gun from culpability, but I hope the hobby burns through this hot topic we are facing. punitive consequences will be defined and the maturity of our hobby’s use of tech/social media (thanks to our “super sleuths”) will act as a deterrent and make us stronger from this.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with the majority, but would be happy with realistic expectations.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

I may be in the minority, but I hope Brent / PSA rebounds from this and criminal charges will be pressed on the card docs. People will be angry if this is the result because of the smoking gun from culpability, but I hope the hobby burns through this hot topic we are facing. punitive consequences will be defined and the maturity of our hobby’s use of tech/social media (thanks to our “super sleuths”) will act as a deterrent and make us stronger from this.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with the majority, but would be happy with realistic expectations.

I serve on a board of trustees and know you never get everything you want.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This post can not be repeated too many times in this thread.

[bigfish]

Nice job Brent.....

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[joshuanip]

If I was PWCC, I would hire a public relations consultant stat! They are worth it for the situation.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Not aimed at a particular post, just at this thread (and the others) in general.

Thank you Adam for adding to my enjoyment.

Doug

[BeanTown]

So whats the normal time period before we start to see what happened and how it happened. 2 years?

[swarmee]

Sotheby's restorer claims to work on baseball cards, shows altered 1933 Goudey Gehrig as repaired on Facebook:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...297351&page=39
Scroll down a couple.

[Rhotchkiss]

This is a thread (very old net54), I just came across, involving Beckett, PWCC and a re-backed t206 red Cobb Drum. Interesting in today's Context.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90096