Holsum research questions

[nolemmings]

Please help me with my research of the D327 Holsum Bread set. Two questions:

1) Can anyone confirm the existence of a Type 1 Holsum card that does NOT have an e135-style photo; i.e., fake horizon/washed-out background?
The closest I've come is the card of Dave Davenport, who was part of a large lot sold in Heritage awhile back. That card was graded as 1920 by SGC, but so was the entire 63 card lot, I believe, and I don't necessarily trust their attention to accuracy (they likely missed on a couple of others). No back scan was provided to confirm.

2) Can anyone confirm that one or more of these subjects can be found with a Type 1 back?:

A: Bagby; Donovan; Foster; Gowdy; Griffith; Judge; Peckinpaugh; Pfeffer; Rixey; Ruth; Thomas;Toney;Whitted. These have been confirmed with Type 2.

B: Daubert, Doak; Jennings; Maranville; McInnis; Meadows; Miller O; Pipp; Schupp; Williams F; Witt, Wood. I have seen these with e121-80 or other related backs, but not Holsum.

Thanks for any help, and confirming scans would be very much appreciated.

[Leon]

Hey Todd
I am sure there are some out there but how many collectors do you think actively collect the set rather than just a type card, HOF'er, or some other particular subset? I remember a few discussions on them in the past but don't remember the participants. Good luck in the hunt. Sorry I can't help with the questions as I never collected the set.

[nolemmings]

I don’t expect many or maybe anyone to be collecting the Holsum set(s) per se, including me, but thought that there are enough type and team collectors here that it is worthwhile to ask them to check their holdings to see if they might answer my questions at least in part. I have been contacted by one member who provided a scan of a Type 2 Holsum I had not confirmed, so I already consider my post a success although I would love to see more.

I am trying to determine the size and extent of Type 1 and Type 2 Holsum checklists. I have confirmed 79 subjects for Type 1, although a couple of those are based only on front scans and TPG slabs, and thus are only semi-confirmed. There really should be more, including Babe Ruth, yet at least thus far an argument can be made that the ad back’s claim of “80 different to the set” looks pretty accurate. There may have been multiple printings of Type 1 that takes the total over 80, as it appears there were at least two printings of Type 2.

I also am somewhat fixated, as you know, on Felix Mendelsohn’s involvement in creating early B&W sets. Because he is very likely the creator of the 1917 E135-like sets and those very poses are used again not only in Holsum but also other 1920-21 sets, I stay on the hunt for information. That is one reason I am interested in whether Type 1 used exclusively 1917 photos, although I would add that Type 2 also borrowed at least some Mendelsohn poses from m101-6 (e.g. Speaker and Wingo). Finally and for purposes of discussion, I would note that I have seen some collectors claim that Type 2 Holsum is more readily found than Type 1. I have confirmed only 54 Type 2 backs, far less than Type 1, and although I don’t follow all sales or pops (there may be multiples of these Type 2s that create a larger population), I have not seen that, and would ask others to describe their experiences. Thanks for looking.

[buymycards]

Hi Todd, I wish I could help, but I only have 2 Holsum's. The Morton is incorrectly identified as a 1921.

Rick

[rhettyeakley]

Todd, I have confirmed checklisted 76 different Holsum Type 1's and ALL have the E135 style images.

I have confirmed about the same number of Type 2's that you have but those are a mix of images from the E135 and updated photos (with backgrounds).

-Rhett

[nolemmings]

Thanks guys. I'll look more closely later tonight, but I believe the only three "semi-confirmed" Type 1s I see are the Davenport already mentioned, Graney and Pratt. Davenport is the only one of the three that does not use the 1917 pose, so he may be a Type 2, although his presence in the Holsum set(s) at all is kind of puzzling so we shall see (hopefully someone can post a back scan of that card). The Graney scan I have for Type 2 shows a longer dash between his position and team name than the front scan I have for what I believe is Type 1, so they are at least two different printings if not different Types. The Pratt has a 1920 label on the slab and shows a 1917 pose, so it seems likely that if this is instead Type 2, any Holsum card of him in Type 1 would use the same pose; i.e. the issuer would not have first used an updated or different photo and then reverted back to the 1917 pic in Type 2. Still, that does not confirm he was in fact included in Type 1.

Even if folks can't address my specific questions, I always enjoy seeing scans, so like Rick, feel free to post 'em if you got 'em.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Please help me with my research of the D327 Holsum Bread set. Two questions:

1) Can anyone confirm the existence of a Type 1 Holsum card that does NOT have an e135-style photo; i.e., fake horizon/washed-out background?
The closest I've come is the card of Dave Davenport, who was part of a large lot sold in Heritage awhile back. That card was graded as 1920 by SGC, but so was the entire 63 card lot, I believe, and I don't necessarily trust their attention to accuracy (they likely missed on a couple of others). No back scan was provided to confirm.

2) Can anyone confirm that one or more of these subjects can be found with a Type 1 back?:

A: Bagby; Donovan; Foster; Gowdy; Griffith; Judge; Peckinpaugh; Pfeffer; Rixey; Ruth; Thomas;Toney;Whitted. These have been confirmed with Type 2.

B: Daubert, Doak; Jennings; Maranville; McInnis; Meadows; Miller O; Pipp; Schupp; Williams F; Witt, Wood. I have seen these with e121-80 or other related backs, but not Holsum.

Thanks for any help, and confirming scans would be very much appreciated.

I'll address your specific questions...

#1) NO, all have E135 front images

#2) A: From your list I have only confirmed Peckinpaugh (interestingly his name is spelled CORRECTLY & then in later E121/Holsum Type 2 & the like printings they mispelled it Peckinbaugh),

[nolemmings]

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

[Jobu]

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

https://www.louisianacards.com/holsum-bread.html

[asphaltman]

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

Thanks Brian, I have seen Zach's list and note it has some names with question marks. If those get confirmed, I'll be happy to add them. Frankly, there are lot of potential additions out there, especially a Type 1 Babe Ruth.

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

Thanks Dave. I believe yours is the only Wamby Type 1 that I have seen. Type 2 is the aforementioned error/mis-identification of Fritz Coumbe as Wambsganss. If there is a different Type 2 I have not seen it. A shame they didn't use the m101-6 pose, which I like alot.

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

Thanks Rhett. I can put that one to rest. He would have been quite the outlier as a Type 1, and I suppose one could surface, but that seems very unlikely.

[nolemmings]

Here is the list of Type 1 Holsums I believe exist. Any comments and additions welcome:
NOTE: I sometimes just used the player's common name for my list rather than the exact name on the card, for example Sam Rice instead of E.C. Rice. I can clean that up, but didn't want people thinking they might have a rare variation just because their cards showed a different spelling. I will try and note changes in caption from Type 1 to Type 2 in other posts.

HOLSUM TYPE 1:

ALEXANDER, GROVER
BAKER, J. FRANKLIN
BANCROFT, DAVE
BARRY, JACK
BURNS, GEO. J
BURNS, TIOGA GEORGE
BUSH, OWEN
CAREY, MAX
CHAPMAN, RAY
CICOTTE, ED

COBB, TY
COLLINS, EDDIE
COVELESKIE, HARRY
CRAVATH, GAVVY
CUTSHAW, GEO.
DAUSS, GEORGE
DEAL, CHARLES
FABER, URBAN
FELSCH, HAP
FLETCHER, ART

FOURNIER, JACQUES
GEDEON, JOE
GRANEY, JOHN?
GROH, HEINIE
HARPER, HARRY
HEILMANN, HARRY
HENRY, JOHN
HERZOG, BUCK
HOLKE, WALTER
HOOPER, HARRY

HORNSBY, ROGERS
JACKSON, JOE
JANVRIN, HAROLD
JOHNSON, WALTER
JOHNSTON, JAMES
KAUFF, BENNY
KILLEFER, BILL
LAVAN, JOHN
LEIBOLD, NEMO
LEONARD, DUTCH

LEWIS, DUFFY
MAMAUX, AL
MCGRAW, JOHN
MILAN, CLYDE
MORGAN, RAY
MORTON, GUY
MYERS, HY
NEHF, ARTIE
O'NEILL, STEVE
PECKINPAUGH, ROGER


PRATT, DERRIL?
RARIDEN, BILL
RICE, SAM
ROBERTSON, DAVEY
ROTH, BOB
ROUSH, ED
RUDOLPH, DICK
SALLEE, SLIM
SCHALK, RAY
SCOTT, EVERETT

SEVEREID, HANK
SHAWKEY, BOB
SHORE, ERNIE
SHOTTON, BURT
SISLER, GEORGE
SMITH, J. CARLISLE
STENGEL. CHARLES
STOCK, MILT
STRUNK, AMOS
TYLER, GEORGE

VAUGHN, JIM
VEACH, BOB
VITT, OSCAR
WALSH, JIM
WAMBSGANSS, BILL
WEILMAN, CARL?
WHEAT, ZACH
WILLIAMS, CLAUDE
YOUNG, PEP

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

[nolemmings]

Thanks guys. I will try and provide my list of Type 1 Holsums soon, but have some Holiday obligations.