Bunt question

[milkit1]

When were bunts officially kept track of in terms of bunts as hits? The reason I ask is I saw a top 10 hunters of all time list and it had no deadball era hitters. That seemed odd to me. Is it possible that bunting percentage wasn't kept track of until later?
Thanks

[Leon]

Not sure of the answer but figure it's a good question to ask the group again. I would have thought they would always count as a hit. Here is a blurb from Wiki on it..

"History
It is impossible to say exactly when the bunt was introduced into baseball, but the offensive technique now known as the bunt was almost certainly invented by one of the sport's most famous early figures, Dickey Pearce. For much of his career, Pearce used his 'tricky hit' to tremendous effect as rules permitted it to roll foul and still be counted as a hit. The bunt was not common until the 1880s, and was not an accepted part of baseball strategy until the 20th century. The bunt has enjoyed periodic waves of acceptance and use throughout baseball history, coinciding with the periodic shifts of dominance between pitching and hitting over the decades.[7]

During periods of pitching dominance, for example, during the dead-ball era or the 1960s, bunting was an important offensive weapon. Conversely, during periods of hitting dominance, for example, the 1990s and 2000s, the value of the bunt has often been questioned.[8] Recently, teams following the "Moneyball" school of baseball thought (such as the Oakland Athletics, the Boston Red Sox, and the 2004-2005 Los Angeles Dodgers) have shown the tendency to shun the sacrifice bunt almost entirely. However, a simple canvass of the 2002-2005 World Series champions (the 2002 Los Angeles Angels acting as the primary "small ball" trendsetter for the 2000s) reveals that each team used bunting frequently in order to overcome strictly power hitting teams.[citation needed] Nevertheless, the role of the bunt in baseball strategy is one of the perennial topics of discussion for baseball fans."

Originally Posted by milkit1

When were bunts officially kept track of in terms of bunts as hits? The reason I ask is I saw a top 10 hunters of all time list and it had no deadball era hitters. That seemed odd to me. Is it possible that bunting percentage wasn't kept track of until later?
Thanks

[swarmee]

I'm confused by this phrase: "reveals that each team used bunting frequently in order to overcome strictly power hitting teams."
Offenses don't battle other offenses in baseball. So using a hitting strategy against a different hitting strategy makes no sense. A hitting strategy like bunting would be used to combat a pitching strategy from the opposing team, independent of the team's hitters.

[BruceinGa]

I remember a tv announcer (many year ago) stating that if a batter squares to perform a sacrifice bunt and the result is that both he and the advanced runner are safe (without an error) then he shall still be credited with a sacrifice bunt, not a hit.
Does anyone else remember that?
I believe that same announcer also stated that an uncontested stolen base would not be scored as a stolen base.
Did I not understand these two instances and have I been mistaken for 40 or 50 years?
If I am correct could modern rule changes make up the difference in pre-war averages and modern?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

I believe that same announcer also stated that an uncontested stolen base would not be scored as a stolen base.

Depends on the situation and the scorekeeper. Scorer can award a stolen base if they choose, but can also withhold calling it a stolen base. Normally this will happen if a team is already leading by a very large number of runs, so one advanced runner has no effect on the game's eventual winning team. This would be called defensive indifference.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BruceinGa

I remember a tv announcer (many year ago) stating that if a batter squares to perform a sacrifice bunt and the result is that both he and the advanced runner are safe (without an error) then he shall still be credited with a sacrifice bunt, not a hit.
Does anyone else remember that?
I believe that same announcer also stated that an uncontested stolen base would not be scored as a stolen base.
Did I not understand these two instances and have I been mistaken for 40 or 50 years?
If I am correct could modern rule changes make up the difference in pre-war averages and modern?

Both are correct. However...

The first one - giving a guy a sacrifice instead of a hit is extremely rare. Scorekeepers almost always give the hitter a hit even though sacrifice is the correct call.

The second one is relatively common and is usually referred to as "defensive indifference". You'll see it in games where a team is trailing by a bunch of runs and a guy on first steals without the defense holding him on.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by milkit1

When were bunts officially kept track of in terms of bunts as hits? The reason I ask is I saw a top 10 hunters of all time list and it had no deadball era hitters. That seemed odd to me. Is it possible that bunting percentage wasn't kept track of until later?
Thanks

Batters were exempted from being charged with at-bats if they executed a successful sacrifice bunt starting in 1894. Baseball-reference.com includes sacrifice hit statistics for batters starting with that year.

The top single-season sacrifice hit total was 67 by Ray Chapman in 1917, and Bill Bradley had 60 in 1908. The nine highest totals and 18 of the highest 20 were all from 1920 or earlier (the other two were in 1921 and 1924).

I'm not sure if this answers your question.

[Mdmtx]

Depending upon personal obligations, maybe I will setup. If not, I will at least attend.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Depending upon personal obligations, maybe I will setup. If not, I will at least attend.

Personal obligations be damned, if at all possible I suggest you setup on this thread too.

Brian (thread guardian since 2001)

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Personal obligations be damned, if at all possible I suggest you setup on this thread too.

Brian (thread guardian since 2001)

I will defend Mark's right to set up anywhere he chooses.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

Depending upon personal obligations, maybe I will setup. If not, I will at least attend.

Should you decide to set up, be sure to use table bunting

[rats60]

Originally Posted by milkit1

When were bunts officially kept track of in terms of bunts as hits? The reason I ask is I saw a top 10 hunters of all time list and it had no deadball era hitters. That seemed odd to me. Is it possible that bunting percentage wasn't kept track of until later?
Thanks

Bunt hits aren't officially tracked. We have play by play data that we can capture bunt hits and attempts to bunt for a hit. The farther back we go, the more holes there is in the data. We have pretty complete data back to the 1950s, so we can analyze the data and give an opinion on the best bunters of the modern era. However, there isn't enough data to compare dead ball hitters to those of the modern era.

All the leaders in sacrifices are from the dead ball era. Eddie Collins has a large lead. That seems strange for a career .333 hitter. Although, Tris Speaker is 10th and Ty Cobb is 12th. Clearly, there were some great bunters before 1950.