Steve Garvey

[Snapolit1]

How does Garvey rank as guys who should be in the Hall but aren't? Any compelling argument he should have gotten in? Admittedly I am not a strong numbers guy at all, but one of my brothers has been beating the drum on Garvey for a while. Any thoughts?

[btcarfagno]

First basemen statistically better than Garvey and not in the HOF (from his era or before or just after):

Keith Hernandez
John Olerud
Fred McGriff
Will Clark
Norm Cash
Dolph Camilli
Gil Hodges
Don Mattingly
Ed Konetchy
Jack Fournier
Joe Judge
Mark Grace
Fred Tenney
Bill White
Boog Powell
Harry Davis
George Scott

So no.

Tom C

[Steve D]

With all due respect Tom, none of those players, with the possible exception of McGriff, Hodges and Hernandez, were better than Garvey.

To me, Garvey, as well as McGriff, Hodges and Hernandez, should be in the Hall of Fame.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

His career stats fall (surprisingly) short, but for a significant period of time he was one of the dominant players in the game, so the argument can be made.

[uniship]

No doubt for a long while Steve Garvey was THE MAN.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Andres Gallaraga too i think should of gotten a better look but Mcgriff tops the list for players in the last 40 years..not garvey

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Steve D

With all due respect Tom, none of those players, with the possible exception of McGriff, Hodges and Hernandez, were better than Garvey.

To me, Garvey, as well as McGriff, Hodges and Hernandez, should be in the Hall of Fame.

Steve

JAWS ranks Garvey as the 51st best 1B of all time. Behind all of the above players. A statistical argument could be made for every player on that list being better than Garvey.

I could also make the argument that Ron Fairly was Garvey's equal.

Tom C

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

JAWS ranks Garvey as the 51st best 1B of all time. Behind all of the above players. A statistical argument could be made for every player on that list being better than Garvey.

I could also make the argument that Ron Fairly was Garvey's equal.

Tom C

Well, the only JAWS I've ever heard of are the movie, Richard Kiel's James Bond character, and Ron Jaworski.

I also only compare players against their peers, look at the stats, and then whatever "intangibles" there are. So really, from your list, I would only compare Garvey to Hernandez. I would honestly induct both of them.

Steve

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, the only JAWS I've ever heard of are the movie, Richard Kiel's James Bond character, and Ron Jaworski.

I also only compare players against their peers, look at the stats, and then whatever "intangibles" there are. So really, from your list, I would only compare Garvey to Hernandez. I would honestly induct both of them.

Steve

How about Ron Fairly? Please take note of Garvey's terrible plate discipline versus Fairly's excellent plate discipline, and also the fact that Fairly's best years were spent on expansion teams where he didn't have the RBI opportunities that Garvey had. Career OPS+ is exactly the same for both. Really the difference between the two is Garvey's extensive post season career. Fairly was a .300 postseason hitter but didn't get the opportunities Garvey did.

If Garvey is a HOFer Fairly likely is as well.

Tom C

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

First basemen statistically better than Garvey and not in the HOF (from his era or before or just after):

Keith Hernandez
John Olerud
Fred McGriff
Will Clark
Norm Cash
Dolph Camilli
Gil Hodges
Don Mattingly
Ed Konetchy
Jack Fournier
Joe Judge
Mark Grace
Fred Tenney
Bill White
Boog Powell
Harry Davis
George Scott

So no.

Tom C

It depends on what you want from your cleanup hitter, walks or rbis. Garvey played on 5 pennant winners and 1 Championship team. He led the each one of those teams in rbis. Between 1974-80, Garvey reached 200 hits 6 times and 100 RBIs 5 times. He won a MVP, 2 LCS MVP, 4 gold gloves and was a 10 time All star.He was excellent in the postseason ..338/.361/.550/.910. He holds the NL records for consecutive games played and most consecutive games without an error. He is top 10 in fielding percentages at 1b.

Garvey doesn't score high on WAR because he didn't walk much and didn't hit a lot of home runs playing in Dodger Stadium. I would rather my cleanup hitter try to drive in runs than try to walk. I would take Garvey's actual wins and championships over hypothetical wins. If the Veteran's Committee is going to elect players, Garvey should be near the top of the list.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

It depends on what you want from your cleanup hitter, walks or rbis. Garvey played on 5 pennant winners and 1 Championship team. He led the each one of those teams in rbis. Between 1974-80, Garvey reached 200 hits 6 times and 100 RBIs 5 times. He won a MVP, 2 LCS MVP, 4 gold gloves and was a 10 time All star.He was excellent in the postseason ..338/.361/.550/.910. He holds the NL records for consecutive games played and most consecutive games without an error. He is top 10 in fielding percentages at 1b.

Garvey doesn't score high on WAR because he didn't walk much and didn't hit a lot of home runs playing in Dodger Stadium. I would rather my cleanup hitter try to drive in runs than try to walk. I would take Garvey's actual wins and championships over hypothetical wins. If the Veteran's Committee is going to elect players, Garvey should be near the top of the list.

Boog Powell played on four pennant winners and two championship teams. Had 109 and 114 RBI on the two championship teams. Was league MVP in a championship year. Also had a second place and third place MVP seasons. Career OPS+ of 134 (versus Garvey at 117).

Garvey had to hit .300 because otherwise he was almost never on base. His MVP was a joke. He wasn't even the best player on his own team, and was likely about sixth or seventh best in the league that year. His gold gloves likewise were jokes. He won those because of his offense. His defense was good in as much as he didn't fumble what he got to. But his arm was a joke. He was a 10x all star during an era especially weak for NL first basemen.

Boog Powell was quite a bit better than Steve Garvey.

Tom C

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Boog Powell played on four pennant winners and two championship teams. Had 109 and 114 RBI on the two championship teams. Was league MVP in a championship year. Also had a second place and third place MVP seasons. Career OPS+ of 134 (versus Garvey at 117).

Garvey had to hit .300 because otherwise he was almost never on base. His MVP was a joke. He wasn't even the best player on his own team, and was likely about sixth or seventh best in the league that year. His gold gloves likewise were jokes. He won those because of his offense. His defense was good in as much as he didn't fumble what he got to. But his arm was a joke. He was a 10x all star during an era especially weak for NL first basemen.

Boog Powell was quite a bit better than Steve Garvey.

Tom C

Garvey's MVP was no more a joke than Powell's. Powell wasn't the best player on his team either. He won his MVP award because he drove in a lot of runs on a pennant winner. He wasn't even top 10 in WAR among position players, Their difference in OPS is all walks. Garvey had 2.46 MVP shares to Powell's 1.95.

Garvey's gold gloves were a product of leading the league in fielding percentage 3 of those 4 seasons and 2nd the other. He was 1st in range factor/game twice and 2nd twice in those 4 seasons. Those gold gloves were deserved and he would have won more if not for Keith Hernandez.

On Garvey's 10 AS team's, the following 1b were his teammates: Pete Rose 4 times, Tony Perez 3 times, Keith Hernandez 3 times and Willie Stargell 1 time. I wouldn't call that a weak era for 1b.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Garvey has to be at or near the top of the list of players with the biggest disparity between the perception of those who saw him play and the assessment of the modern stats. Especially with those 6 200 hits seasons and 5 100 RBI seasons, but ranking only 51st at his position, WTF is that?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Garvey's MVP was no more a joke than Powell's. Powell wasn't the best player on his team either. He won his MVP award because he drove in a lot of runs on a pennant winner. He wasn't even top 10 in WAR among position players, Their difference in OPS is all walks. Garvey had 2.46 MVP shares to Powell's 1.95.

Garvey's gold gloves were a product of leading the league in fielding percentage 3 of those 4 seasons and 2nd the other. He was 1st in range factor/game twice and 2nd twice in those 4 seasons. Those gold gloves were deserved and he would have won more if not for Keith Hernandez.

On Garvey's 10 AS team's, the following 1b were his teammates: Pete Rose 4 times, Tony Perez 3 times, Keith Hernandez 3 times and Willie Stargell 1 time. I wouldn't call that a weak era for 1b.

Powell was the best offensive player on his team by any and every measure you wish to choose. I suppose if you just go by WAR then Jim Palmer was more valuable, but I doubt you want to bring WAR up, seeing as Steve Garvey in 1974 was FOURTH on his own team in WAR. Garvey was not the best offensive player on his own team by any measure you wish to use that year. He was far down the list in oWAR in 1974, ranking no better than 11th in the league from what I can tell. In WAR he wasn't in the top 20 in the league. Boog was fifth in oWAR in 1970, so while his being named MVP wasn't the best idea in the world (especially with a traditional stats monster yuear from Yaz), it wasn't nearly the joke that Garvey's 1974 selection was.

Range factor and fielding percentage as measures of defensive ability at first base? That's cherry picking nearly useless stats. If the player is from post 1953, Total Zone Runs needs to be the metric used. Historically speaking, let's look at the players whom I have always thought to be outstanding defensive first baseman and the TZR figure:

Keith Hernandez 114
John Olerud 89
George Scott 87
Mark Grace 84
Vic Power 59
Eddie Murray 59
Bill White 55
Rafael Palmeiro 48
Gil Hodges 41 (only 1953-on)
Wes Parker 29
Don Mattingly 29

So even though Parker and Donnie Baseball seem a bit low, overall the best of the best are recognized as such.

How about the worst defensive first basemen? How do they rank?

Frank Thomas (Chi) -61
Dick Stuart -59
Mo Vaughn -43
Jason Giambi -36 (with solid .992 career fielding % - go figure!)
Adam Dunn -34 (in just 528 games)
Dave Kingman -22 (in just 603 games)
Frank Howard -14 (tough in just 334 games)

So TZR does its job as you would expect it to as a metric for defense at first base.

Steve Garvey?

Career TZR at first base?

Negative two.

Not exactly gold glove caliber.

In 1975-1977 as Garvey was winning gold gloves, you know who was also playing first base in the NL? Keith Hernandez. Arguably the greatest fielding first baseman of all time. But sure. Steve Garvey totally earned those gold gloves.

Pete Rose didn't become a first baseman until age 38 in 1979. During and after which he had two solid seasons. Just two. The rest of the time he was pretty bad.

Tony Perez had some consistently decent seasons, but his post 1973 high for OPS+ was 124. So, solid but not great for a 1B for sure.

Keith Hernandez I will grant you.

Willie Stargell was good post 1974 but constantly injured. Over 500 AB in a season just once.

Tom C

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by rats60

It depends on what you want from your cleanup hitter, walks or rbis. Garvey played on 5 pennant winners and 1 Championship team. He led the each one of those teams in rbis. Between 1974-80, Garvey reached 200 hits 6 times and 100 RBIs 5 times. He won a MVP, 2 LCS MVP, 4 gold gloves and was a 10 time All star.He was excellent in the postseason ..338/.361/.550/.910. He holds the NL records for consecutive games played and most consecutive games without an error. He is top 10 in fielding percentages at 1b.

Garvey doesn't score high on WAR because he didn't walk much and didn't hit a lot of home runs playing in Dodger Stadium. I would rather my cleanup hitter try to drive in runs than try to walk. I would take Garvey's actual wins and championships over hypothetical wins. If the Veteran's Committee is going to elect players, Garvey should be near the top of the list.

RBI's are a terrible way to judge performance because the batter had nothing to do with the player's getting on base in front of him.

WAR is not just about walks and homers, it's about production and Garvey is simply not even in the top 40 or so at 1b and that's not even close to HOF worthiness.

Garvey has a 116 wRC+ for his career (16% above avg hitter)

career fWAR of 37.8 is nowhere near HOF caliber, I mean not even in the same state much less the ballpark

career OPS of .775 at 1b is mediocre

272 homers at 1b is mediocre (power matters)

career ISO of .152 at first base is mediocre

by fWAR Garvey is 61st all time for 1b

by wRC+ Garvey is tied for 153rd among 1b all time


Heck Garvey barely makes the hall of the very good.

[steve B]

TZR? Isn't that the tv channel that's almost entirely entertainment industry related news?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who else is at or near the top of the perception vs reality list? I know Bill James claims for example that Sisler was vastly overrated.