True Pre-War Rookie Cards

[Rhotchkiss]

With all the different types of "cards" issued during 1900-1930 (tobacco, caramel, confectionery, bread, post cards, etc.), and in the absence of a true, mainstream "set" (like T206 or Goudey), I find it confusing and very hard to determine the true rookie card for each of the following HOFers. Can the board help create a consensus on what the true rookie card is for each of the following players:

Ty Cobb
Walter Johnson
Cy Young
Christy Matthewson
Nap Lajoie
Joe Jackson
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you have not done so already try searching this has been done many times before. As for Ruth, the question is going to be do you count the Baltimore News or not and I doubt there is any consensus on that. For Gehrig I think most would agree it's the 1925 Exhibit. I am certain there are several threads debating the Cobb and Lajoie it depends what the date of some issues are and that isn't completely certain. For Young, from memory, it's the Just So although it's extremely scarce. Jackson I would think E90-1. Mathewson I forget, it may also depend on the uncertain date of some issues.

[RaidonCollects]

Ty Cobb I consider his E102 card, although it may be his Rose postcard. Not sure.
Cy Young is his 1893 Just So Cabinet
Joe Jackson as said above is his E90-1, however his T210 card can also be called a rookie.
Babe Ruth is his M101-4 or M101-5 and there might be a few more in "the M101-4/5 family" his Baltimore News card is a "pre-rookie" minor league card.
Lou Gehrig as said above, 1925 Exhibits.

Don't know about the rest,

Thanks,

Owen

[pherbener]

The Matty would be his E107 although some people may argue his W600 Street Clothes variaton.

[darwinbulldog]

Below is the closest thing we have to a definitive list, but you really have to decide for yourself if you want to count a minor league card issued during the year of the MLB debut (e.g., Baltimore News Ruth), a minor league card that was issued before the year of the rookie debut (e.g., Tip Top Lefty Groves), or after the qualifying rookie year (e.g., pretty much anything nominated as a rookie card for Stan Musial), and whether you count postcards (e.g., this Walter Johnson postcard), discs (e.g., E254 Tris Speaker), various premia (e.g., M101-1 Honus Wagner), whether the player has to appear alone or can share the card or "card" with another player or two or three...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603

[Rhotchkiss]

That is awesome is awesome! Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you

[calvindog]

Though this is a team card, I look at this as my "rookie" Cobb.

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

Ty Cobb I consider his E102 card, although it may be his Rose postcard. Not sure.
Cy Young is his 1893 Just So Cabinet
Joe Jackson as said above is his E90-1, however his T210 card can also be called a rookie.
Babe Ruth is his M101-4 or M101-5 and there might be a few more in "the M101-4/5 family" his Baltimore News card is a "pre-rookie" minor league card.
Lou Gehrig as said above, 1925 Exhibits.

Don't know about the rest,

Thanks,

Owen

How do you not count the Baltimore News for Ruth since it was a minor league issue, but count the T210 for Jax even though it was as well?

[RaidonCollects]

Originally Posted by Griffins

How do you not count the Baltimore News for Ruth since it was a minor league issue, but count the T210 for Jax even though it was as well?

I know both the T210 Jackson and Babe Ruth Baltimore News are both minor league cards, but it's a bit complicated, I only consider the Baltimore News to be a "pre-rookie," whilst the T210 Jackson is just a rookie (maybe not even that).

Ruth played with the Baltimore Orioles in 1914, and his "pre-rookie" was issued sometime around that. His M101-4 (and others) were not issued until circa 1916. I consider the true rookie of a player to be their first major league card appearance.

With Jackson it is a bit different. Joe went in between the majors and minors from 1908 until 1910, he played his first full major lg. season in 1911. During this time, Joe played with the Philly Athletics in 1908 and '09. He was traded to the Naps in '10 where his played with the New Orleans Pelicans in the minors and finished the season with the Naps. Joe's E90-1 card pictures him with the Athletics so it must have been issued (or at least the picture is from) in 1909 (E90-1 production didn't start till '09). Jackson is one of the most common cards in the set, leading me to believe that his was issued in most or all of the E90-1 years (1909-11), but ACC didn't both to change his team due to being in and out of the minors. Joe didn't play for the Pelicans (who he is pictured with in T210) until 1910 (also being T210's approx issue date). This leads me to believe that the E90-1 card came before the T210, although his E90-1 production may have run during and past T210 production if Joe was printed in multiple years.

Sorry for writing too much, I probably could have just used a couple sentences,

thanks,

Owen

[h2oya311]

My head is spinning, but I sorta see the logic with this...since I look for the earliest (generally playing years or baseball related) cards/photos of a player, I have a much easier time figuring out "rookie" (or should I say earliest?) issues for negro league players. With all this minor league/major league "pre-rookie" mumbo-jumbo, what do you do there?? Ignore these HOF negro league athletes completely?

Maybe it's just me, but I have a harder time calling a 1949 Bowman card of Satchel Paige a "rookie" when he was 44 years old and had been playing organized/professional baseball since the late 1920s. And how about Josh Gibson or his predecessors who never played a Major League Baseball game?? And don't tell me that Gibson's 1950-51 Toleteros is a rookie either. He had died in 1947, 3-4 years prior to issuance!

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

Ty Cobb I consider his E102 card, although it may be his Rose postcard. Not sure.

I think that it is generally accepted that the E102 set was issued in 1910. The Rose Co. postcard set was definitely first issued in 1908. I believe that Cobb's first individual cards were any of his 1907 postcards - AC Dietsche (2 poses), HM Taylor, Wolverine (2 poses) and Seamless Steel along with his W600 Sporting Life Cabinet, which was definitely first issued in 1907. If you want to include team cards, then the 1906 Sporting Life Detroit postcard would be for you.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Can the board help create a consensus on what the true rookie card is for each of the following players:

There is no consensus on some/many of those HOFers because as you can see early in this thread, we do not all agree on what a "card" is.

This has been discussed many times on the board, and while always thought provoking, in the end there has never been a consensus because there are entirely different schools of thought.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by botn

There is no consensus on some/many of those HOFers because as you can see early in this thread, we do not all agree on what a "card" is.

This has been discussed many times on the board, and while always thought provoking, in the end there has never been a consensus because there are entirely different schools of thought.

Which is why I have a lot of items listed for each player...to each his own. If you like only "standard size" individual cards, great (it's listed). Individual photos? Team photos? Large sized individual cards, team cards, postcards, pins, newspaper stock, supplements? Regional vs. nationally issued cards?...major league uniform only vs minor league uniform vs suit/tie/street clothes photos...how 'bout early childhood photos? Again, to each his own.

While there isn't consensus on what makes an item a "rookie" card, I tend to think that any card/photo/item that makes its way onto my checklist (which is constantly being updated), then it's a "rookie card" in my book. Even if it's not a contemporary card (like the 1974 Laughlins for many Negro League HOFers). I love learning of new/obscure items to add to my checklist, even if it's a virtually unobtainable item (either for financial reasons or scarcity). If anyone is interested, my checklist is simply an extension of Phil's checklist from years ago along with those cards that "check all the boxes".

[botn]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Which is why I have a lot of items listed for each player...to each his own. If you like only "standard size" individual cards, great (it's listed). Individual photos? Team photos? Large sized individual cards, team cards, postcards, pins, newspaper stock, supplements? Regional vs. nationally issued cards?...major league uniform only vs minor league uniform vs suit/tie/street clothes photos...how 'bout early childhood photos? Again, to each his own.

While there isn't consensus on what makes an item a "rookie" card, I tend to think that any card/photo/item that makes its way onto my checklist (which is constantly being updated), then it's a "rookie card" in my book. Even if it's not a contemporary card (like the 1974 Laughlins for many Negro League HOFers). I love learning of new/obscure items to add to my checklist, even if it's a virtually unobtainable item (either for financial reasons or scarcity). If anyone is interested, my checklist is simply an extension of Phil's checklist from years ago along with those cards that "check all the boxes".

Your list is very comprehensive and fantastic. As someone who defines rookie card very loosely I see plenty there I would deem a rookie issue though maybe not a rookie card. You have cabinets, postcards, traditional cards, photos etc and my point is that many here would reject many of those listed a rookie cards.

To me a rookie "card" is pretty simple. It is the first time a player appears on an item that has any intended or actual distribution to the public. Does not matter about the size, whether or not it has advertising, whether it was issued nationally or locally or if it features that player in the minor leagues.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by botn

To me a rookie "card" is pretty simple. It is the first time a player appears on an item that has any intended or actual distribution to the public. Does not matter about the size, whether or not it has advertising, whether it was issued nationally or locally or if it features that player in the minor leagues.

I pretty much agree with the definition above. My definition is the first cardboard collectible that was commercially distributed to the public either nationally or regionally. The only other caveat that that I have is that a minor league card would be a pre-rookie.

[barrysloate]

Sometimes a collector has to make a practical choice when deciding which rookie card to add to his collection.

Take the Just So Cy Young, for example. To my knowledge the card is unique, and the collector who owns it will not sell it in his lifetime. So if you are looking for an example of Cy Young, you will have to go with something other than Just So.

Added to the dilemma is that Just So's were distributed in the Cleveland area only, so one could argue it's a regional issue and therefore doesn't qualify.

At the end of the day, each collector has to make some decisions.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here are my parameters:

Rookie Card - Earliest "card" picturing the individual in the Major Leagues. Max of 4 players pictured and must be a catalogued issue.

Rookie - Earliest catalogued issue picturing the individual. Max of 4 players pictured. For example M101-1, M101-2, etc.

Earliest - Any team or individual item not meeting the above mentioned criteria for a rookie or rookie card.

Pre-Rookie - Earliest catalogued card with no Major League stipulations, typically a Minor League issue such as Zeenuts, etc.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Here are my parameters:

Rookie Card - Earliest "card" picturing the individual in the Major Leagues. Max of 4 players pictured and must be a catalogued issue.

Rookie - Earliest catalogued issue picturing the individual. Max of 4 players pictured. For example M101-1, M101-2, etc.

Earliest - Any team or individual item not meeting the above mentioned criteria for a rookie or rookie card.

Pre-Rookie - Earliest catalogued card with no Major League stipulations, typically a Minor League issue such as Zeenuts, etc.

Phil - Those are pretty good parameters. Where would you categorize Old Judge cards of players associated with their minor league teams?