Western Association Old Judges

[oldjudge]

In another thread, the scarcity of 1888 and 1889 Western Association Old Judges was discussed. The 1888 cards are quite scarce and the 1889 cards are scarcer than both National League and American Association cards, the ones that make up a majority of the 1889 issue. I thought it would be fun to ask people to post their Western Association Old Judges, if they have any. I am out now, but will post some later too. Have at it guys!

[sreader3]

I like this Klusman because it is a triple-variation card:

Version A: "Milwaukee" caption; "MILWAUKEE" on shirt
Version B: Handwritten "Denver" caption; "MILWAUKEE" partially blocked-out on shirt but still visible
Version C (the one you're looking at): Typeset "Denvers" caption; "MILWAUKEE" fully blocked-out on shirt

I can't think of too many other triple-variation cards!

Hoffman is probably the most difficult Denver subject (although the most difficult pose is surely the recently confirmed Dave Rowe portrait).

[Mdmtx]

Keep on educating guys! Love the posts. I have increased my n172 holdings to a total of 6. Plus 1 n174. I want to add an n173 in the near future.

[oldjudge]

Great cards Scot. Let me include some 1889 managers and s neat 1888 Milwaukee two player card,

[oldjudge]

Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm not sure how to do multiple photos on one post.

[oldjudge]

For the Denver collectors

[tiger8mush]

According to baseball-reference.com, there were 10 teams in the 1888 WA:
Chicago Maroons
Davenport Onion Weeders
Des Moines Prohibitionists
Kansas City Blues
Milwaukee Brewers/Creams
Minneapolis Millers
Omaha Omahogs/Lambs
Sioux City Corn Huskers
St. Louis Whites
St. Paul Apostles

the 8 WA teams of 1889 were:
Denver Grizzlies/Mountaineers
Des Moines Prohibitionists
Milwaukee Brewers/Creams
Minneapolis Millers
Omaha Omahogs/Lambs
Sioux City Corn Huskers
St. Joseph Clay Eaters
St. Paul Apostles

My only contributions of the WA:

[the-illini]

Jay already posted this player/pose, but I thought I would add to the "overall population" of Barnes

Pretty sure I bought this one from Jay as well...

[ramram]

Here is my contribution of Kansas City players with some WA Kansas City Blues mixed in there.

Rob M

Kansas City Ball Players.jpg

[oldjudge]

Rob-Those are some beautiful cards. I especially like than 1888 WA Swartzel.

[oldjudge]

Here are a few more 1888 WA cards, and also the President and Vice President 57 years ago. I think we just need Omaha and St Paul to finish the 1888s.

[ramram]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Here are a few more 1888 WA cards, and also the President and Vice President 57 years ago. I think we just need Omaha and St Paul to finish the 1888s.

That's a beautiful Johnson!

Umm, wait a minute, what did I just say??

Rob M

[oldjudge]

Thank goodness you didn't say it was a semi-erect Johnson

[TheBig6]

The Grasshopper

[oldjudge]

Jerry: That Maines is beautiful!

[z28jd]

Love the Anderson/Veach card, Jay. I don't think too many people truly grasp how great that card is. Wish I could add some scans, but I have no WA cards on my laptop and I'm not home right now to scan them

[tiger8mush]

Jay, I'm seriously considering buying you a $100 scanner

[oldjudge]

LOL--no computer, just a cell phone.

[chlankf]

Here are a few Sioux City

[kkkkandp]

Sorry for coming late to the party, but there have been a lot of distractions lately.

I'll try to post what I have periodically in some logical groupings as I unearth them from storage.

1888 Des Moines

[oldjudge]

Those are beauties Kevin, especially that scarcer Orator Shafer card.

[kkkkandp]

They're all not that beautiful. Wait until you see the rest!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

They're all not that beautiful. Wait until you see the rest!

Kevin, I see what you mean - these last 4 OJs are really crappy compared to the first 3 you posted!

[pro9]

I know it's not an OJ, but it is a Sioux City player (Weber) from that time period.

[kkkkandp]

Next in line...

1888 Kansas City Blues

[felada]

That gunson is great

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by felada

That gunson is great

Thanks, David, but PSA says it's only "Good!"

[ramram]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

Next in line...

1888 Kansas City Blues

Whoa, Kevin, lot's of KC beauties. If they ever wanna come home to Kansas City, keep me in mind!

Rob M

[oldjudge]

All beauties, but I especially like the Gunson and Reynolds cards, both with gloves on both hands. Please keep posting images!

[kkkkandp]

A couple more from storage:

1888 Saint Louis Whites

[oldjudge]

Great Whites' cards. Speaking of the Whites, did anyone else notice the Hines Whites N173 in REA? If I'm not mistaken that is the first Whites Old Judge cabinet I have ever seen. Unless I missed one, there are also none in the Cartophilic Society listing. It makes sense that they should be rare, as the team folded after less than two months.

[BobC]

Sorry for coming late to the party, just didn't see this earlier. Unlike a lot of you others, I don't always have the nicest N172s but, I have a few. I believe these include all the Western Association players I have. Sorry if I duplicated any earlier ones already posted.

By the way, on the second to the last OJ posted, Sowders with KC, you'll notice what appears to maybe be some paper loss on the front at the bottom where the first part of the words "Cigarette" and "Goodwin" are missing. That is not the case though as there is no paper missing and somehow those letters never got included as part of the picture. I don't remember seeing that before on any other OJs. Is that something normal that has occurded with other OJs or maybe it is just a known issue with this particular card? Curious if anyone has any thoughts or input on that. Thanks.

[Joe_G.]

Nice cards everyone.

Hello Bob,

Your Sowders card is neat, could be explained by something/anything that would have blocked sunlight through the glass plate negative while developing the print. Could have been a drop of ink on the negative, a corner of overlapping paper, etc. I have a Stump Wiedman OJ with the left side (well beyond the border) omitted in a fashion similar to the bottom corner of your Sowders.

[kkkkandp]

Sorry for the long post. These are the remainder of my 1888s.

1888 Minneapolis Millers

[Baseball Rarities]

Wow Kevin. All of those have amazing photos. Great group.

[oldjudge]

Kevin-You know N173s really well. Have you ever seen a Whites cabinet before?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Kevin-You know N173s really well. Have you ever seen a Whites cabinet before?

No, not until the brown mount Hines in REA.

[Joe_G.]

Nice cards Kevin!, the 1888 Minneapolis cards are a bit easier to collect than the other 1888 Western Association teams with most of the players/poses being Fa cards.

Regarding Western Association cabinets, we do know that in general the 1889 cabinets are more common than 1888 which would suggest the most difficult WA teams would be Chicago Maroons, Kansas City Blues, and St. Louis Whites (these three would not make it to 1889). Of these three teams, St. Louis Whites was the first to disband (June 20th of 1888) which likely led to extremely few cabinets being ordered. The new for 1889 teams (Sioux City, Denver, & St Joseph) may follow with the teams that played both years being more likely to surface.

I just caught your last comment on the Nicholson . . . the Nicholson I used as an Fb example might be from your collection (or Burdick, LOC, etc.). That Fa/Fb/Fc composite is from ten years ago when we were gathering lots of images for the book. I will re-create Fa vs Fb vs Fc from my collection (all Detroit)

[kkkkandp]

Can't let this thread die just yet...

1889 Sioux City Cornhuskers

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by seattlerainiers

Here are a few

Not to derail this thread, but any idea what would happen to these beautiful curled OJs if they were smashed flat--in a slab, for instance? It seems like you'd crack the surface.

I imagine some of the OJs currently in slabs were curled at some point; does it take time for damage to appear, or is it okay to flatten them?

Bill

[pete zouras]

I have one card that was curled that developed a crease down the center in the process of putting into a holder (Beckett btw, due to flattening). The other issue I've noticed is image fading even when not exposed to light. Both issues have been the exception for me, hence I keep collecting them.

[Leon]

Not sure on these, but I have seen more than one old judge type card get cracked when flattened out. Others will know more but in my experiences they seem brittle. I am sure the OJ collectors have lots of tales....

Originally Posted by birdman42

Not to derail this thread, but any idea what would happen to these beautiful curled OJs if they were smashed flat--in a slab, for instance? It seems like you'd crack the surface.

I imagine some of the OJs currently in slabs were curled at some point; does it take time for damage to appear, or is it okay to flatten them?

Bill

[kkkkandp]

I guess I have been exceptionally lucky, but I do not recall having any N172s that were so curled that I feared what might happen if I slabbed them.

I will say, however, that if I DID have one that curled, I would probably opt to not send it for encapsulation.