Do I Remove Fake Ty Cobb Autograph From Genuine Hughie Jennings Signed Bat??

[Bpm0014]

I'm in a bit of a dilemna. I recently purchased a Hughie Jennings autographed bat circa 1910's. The Hughie Jennings was deemed genuine, however the Ty Cobb, Oscar Stanage, Donie Bush and 2 others were deemed "clubhouse". I'm a collector of T206 player game-used bats. My question is: Do I (profesionally) remove the clubhouse signatures, just leaving the Hughie Jennings? Or do I leave it as-is? A recent review by James Spence has also determined that the Jennings signature is authentic, while the others are indeed clubhouse. Any opinions would be appreciated. I'm leaning toward having them removed....

http://huntauctions.com/phone/img124/121.jpg

[vintagetoppsguy]

If it were mine, I would leave it as-is.

[4815162342]

Keep it as is. You never know, in a few years they might become genuine again!

[Jobu]

I also vote that you leave it alone.

It was still signed in the clubhouse and that adds something over a standard fake. If it was signed by someone in his garage in Queens in the 90s then I would vote to have them removed. Plus, if you aren't 100% sure what you want to do right now remember that you can always remove them later but you can never put them back.

[t206fix]

Dumb question - but what is a "Clubhouse Signature"?

thanks

[slidekellyslide]

Leave it as is....Jimmy Spence is not infallible.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Dumb question - but what is a "Clubhouse Signature"?

thanks

A clubhouse signature was not signed by the actual player, but by someone affiliated with the team who learned how to duplicate each of the player's signatures. This was commonly done when the actual player was not available to sign.

Somebody already answered this. Sorry for the duplication.

[Runscott]

Tough to tell much from that photo, but signing a bat with a steel-tip pen was probably more difficult than writing on a flat surface or on a baseball. I would be curious to see an example or two of Cobb's autograph on a bat. Could be you found a real gem.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Tough to tell much from that photo, but signing a bat with a steel-tip pen was probably more difficult than writing on a flat surface or on a baseball. I would be curious to see an example or two of Cobb's autograph on a bat. Could be you found a real gem.

"Description: Early c.1910s Louisville Slugger professional model/quality bat (dash-dot-dash centerbrand) with apparent Hugh Jennings signature (see description) (EX) Louisville Slugger hand turned bat measuring 34.25" long weighs 32oz with "Scott" name block lettered into the barrel end. Mild usage wear is evident throughout with some handle tape remaining and scattered surface wear. "Signed" throughout are vintage fountain pen "signatures" from members of the 1916-17 Detroit Tigers. The bat was initially sold at auction in 2001 with a PSA/DNA auction house LOA which infers that all are authentic (autographs include Ty Cobb, Hugh Jennings, Donie Bush, Bob Veach, Oscar Stanage, and Ralph Young rating 5/6-7 out of 10 - Stanage and Young lesser at 1-3). A more recent review by James Spence has resulted in his opinion that the Jennings signature is authentic, others are clubhouse, and that there are possibly removals: EX" Auction House Description.

Cobb was deemed authenticate at one point so maybe it still is?

[Bpm0014]

My initial thought was "I can understand a clubhouse signature of Ty Cobb, but why would there be (period) clubhouse signatures of Oscar Stanage and Donie Bush?"

[Fred]

Sounds like a good question for Spence. Does he have examples of club house signatures of all these different players? This is why I have a hard time relying on these "experts" when it comes to signatures. Not just Spence, but all of them. I sure would like to read the writeup that was provided by Spence on this. It would be entertaining.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

My initial thought was "I can understand a clubhouse signature of Ty Cobb, but why would there be (period) clubhouse signatures of Oscar Stanage and Donie Bush?"

Brendan, there wouldn't be. My guess is that once we get a clear look at each signature, some will feel that either all are good or all or bad. Given that Stanage and Bush are on it, I would guess 'all good'. That wooden bat could have had a rough surface when these guys were trying to sign it, it could have been held in a way that made signing difficult, etc.

[Bpm0014]

Scott, I will post pics once the bat arrives. You are correct in that I took a shot in ALL of the signatures being legit. From the brief scans that I have, the Donie Bush looks fairly accurate. And at one time, ALL of the autos were deemed to be authentic. But I will post pics once received.

[yanks12025]

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=19766

[Bpm0014]

That is the bat. Correct!

[jad22]

Why the change 13 years later for the same authenticator?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jad22

Why the change 13 years later for the same authenticator?

Warning: I have out my special opener for the nastier cans of worms.

My understanding is that some auction houses do not give their authenticator the original LOA, even if it is the same authenticator - they only give him the item. Is it possible the authenticator forgot how he had originally authenticated the item?

I know, it sounds very improbable, but that's what I have been told.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Warning: I have out my special opener for the nastier cans of worms.

My understanding is that some auction houses do not give their authenticator the original LOA, even if it is the same authenticator - they only give him the item. Is it possible the authenticator forgot how he had originally authenticated the item?

I know, it sounds very improbable, but that's what I have been told.

I wonder if the authenticator is presented with this after the fact, as to determine why the mistake was initially made (if the initial was the incorrect one).

[Enfuego]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I'm in a bit of a dilemna. I recently purchased a Hughie Jennings autographed bat circa 1910's. The Hughie Jennings was deemed genuine, however the Ty Cobb, Oscar Stanage, Donie Bush and 2 others were deemed "clubhouse". I'm a collector of T206 player game-used bats. My question is: Do I (profesionally) remove the clubhouse signatures, just leaving the Hughie Jennings? Or do I leave it as-is? A recent review by James Spence has also determined that the Jennings signature is authentic, while the others are indeed clubhouse. Any opinions would be appreciated. I'm leaning toward having them removed....

http://huntauctions.com/phone/img124/121.jpg

Leave it alone

[yanks12025]

This bat is in a article on haul of shame.

[prewarsports]

What I find interesting is that Hugh Jennings generally had a much different autograph on a baseball than on a flat surface. His signature on a baseball tended to be more of a print style, especially with his "J" (several players did this back in the day) for the exact reason already mentioned... signing a round baseball is difficult with a steel tipped fountain pen. Logic would tell you that signing a bat would be equally difficult so I wonder why he would sign in this style here as well. Just a thought.

[Bpm0014]

Bat still not received yet. Will post detailed pictures once received.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

What I find interesting is that Hugh Jennings generally had a much different autograph on a baseball than on a flat surface. His signature on a baseball tended to be more of a print style, especially with his "J" (several players did this back in the day) for the exact reason already mentioned... signing a round baseball is difficult with a steel tipped fountain pen. Logic would tell you that signing a bat would be equally difficult so I wonder why he would sign in this style here as well. Just a thought.

He wasn't drunk?

[Bpm0014]

Bat in hand. Here are some close up pictures. I'm a novice when it comes to autographs, but the Donie Bush looks good to me, the Ty Cobb looks bad, the Hughie Jennings has some things that I like, the Oscar Stanage is tough to read, and the others, well.... I've included detailed pics of the bat including 3 on the other side which state "Detroit Base Ball Club". Again, may be wishful thinking, but I believe it is a little more difficult to sign a bat. I also have in hand the 2001 PSA/DNA letter of auth from James Spence claiming the ALL of the autos are authentic. Any help will be appreciated! Thanks!

[joshleland]

The only clubhouse that bat was signed in would be the Little Rascals. 100% no good, it's fake. Get your money back.

[Bpm0014]

Even the Hughie Jennings? Although James Spence in 2001 said that ALL were good in the COA, he subsequently followed up with another COA this year that states that ONLY the Hughie Jennings is authentic...

[Runscott]

PM sent, as I don't feel like doing battle publicly today

[earlywynnfan]

I don't care what anyone says, the thought that one super-old auto would be good while the rest fake (or even "clubhouse" on an unusual item such as this) strains credibility much too far for my liking.

[joshleland]

Yes Brendan none of them are good. Jason Duncan says is not an autograph person but has good instincts. It is in fact all signed by the same person and that is obvious. This is a forgery and not a great one. Someone took a flea market bat and added these signatures. Do you realize how amazing a signed bat of these players would be ? Probably 10-15k. And a Jennings signed bat with or without clubhouse signatures is an incredible piece. I've never even seen Jennings on a bat that I can recall. But worst of all this whole thing of calling modern forged items "clubhouse" has got to stop.

[joshleland]

Yes Brendan none of them are good. Jason Duncan says is not an autograph person but has good instincts. It is in fact all signed by the same person and that is obvious. This is a forgery and not a great one. Someone took a flea market bat and added these signatures. Do you realize how amazing a signed bat of these players would be ? Probably 10-15k. And a Jennings signed bat with or without clubhouse signatures is an incredible piece. I've never even seen Jennings on a bat that I can recall. But worst of all this whole thing of calling modern forged items "clubhouse" has got to stop.