Poll for Buying Cards with Chemically Removed Stains

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As a follow-up to the Gone With the Stain thread, I'd like to take a poll regarding you STRICTLY AS A BUYER and NOT YOUR BELIEFS AS A SELLER regarding the purchase of a sports card with chemically removed stains.

[steve B]

I went with "would', but for me it's more complicated.

If it was done professionally or in a way that I felt was proper then it would not affect my decision much.

If it was done poorly or in a way that I thought would do more damage over time Then it would.

Steve B

[T206Collector]

What chemical?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by steve B

I went with "would', but for me it's more complicated.

If it was done professionally or in a way that I felt was proper then it would not affect my decision much.

If it was done poorly or in a way that I thought would do more damage over time Then it would.

Steve B

I kind of agree with Steve here...additionally it really depends on the card itself.

If it's a card that never comes up...and I "need" it...it wouldn't matter as much to me...as opposed to a card that commonly appears...I'd be more inclined to pass.

I did not respond to the poll as the answers are too general for my response!

Oh...and what about water? IS that a chemical?

[Leon]

I voted it would influence me but there does need to be more info.

But the way I looked at it was...if I had the choice between the exact same card that had been chemically cleaned or one that wasn't, I would pick the one that wasn't.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

I voted it would influence me but there does need to be more info.

But the way I looked at it was...if I had the choice between the exact same card that had been chemically cleaned or one that wasn't, I would pick the one that wasn't.

But what if the chemical was an undetectable preservative that prevented the card from turning yellow in the future and even guarded against the terror of pyrolysis.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

But what if the chemical was an undetectable preservative that prevented the card from turning yellow in the future and even guarded against the terror of pyrolysis.

LMAO....well, if it comes to pyrolosis I may have to reconsider. I am not a major purist but like my cards unadulterated as much as possible.

Now if the chemical was ONLY water, or a mark had been erased with a plastic eraser, it wouldn't influence my decision...but that is just me.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I kind of agree with Steve here...additionally it really depends on the card itself.

If it's a card that never comes up...and I "need" it...it wouldn't matter as much to me...as opposed to a card that commonly appears...I'd be more inclined to pass.

I did not respond to the poll as the answers are too general for my response!

Oh...and what about water? IS that a chemical?

Those are valid points, but the fact is no card seller that I'm aware of ever discloses what chemicals are used to removed stains. So there again if you know that stains were removed from a card, would that in itself influence your purchasing decision? Let's use this card as an example:

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Those are valid points, but the fact is no card seller that I'm aware of ever discloses what chemicals are used to removed stains.

It would be good to know if the whiter borders and back, shown in the 'after' scan, are accurate - also, if the pink really was washed out of Plank's face. I have owned a few T206's over the years that displayed that strange look, and I knew there was something wrong with them, but of course couldn't pinpoint it, as I wasn't present at the 'cleaning', but as Barry pointed out in the other thread, it almost certainly had nothing to do with pure water. Again, let's use common sense here.

[ethicsprof]

dr. frank's engaging argument regarding the terror of pyrolysis was a mind-changer for me.
best,
barry

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It would be good to know if the whiter borders and back, shown in the 'after' scan, are accurate - also, if the pink really was washed out of Plank's face. I have owned a few T206's over the years that displayed that strange look, and I knew there was something wrong with them, but of course couldn't pinpoint it, as I wasn't present at the 'cleaning', but as Barry pointed out in the other thread, it almost certainly had nothing to do with pure water. Again, let's use common sense here.

I've been told by someone who knows (And that I believe) That the scans accurately represent the card both before and after cleaning.

It probably got lost in the other thread, but my opinion of that particular cleaning is that it's sloppy amateurish work that goes beyond what's appropriate. And since they couldn't do it well enough to avoid lightening the card overall they probably were too sloppy to neutralize whatever they used. So the card will probably be in for long term damage.

Even if I could afford it, that would greatly influence my decision.

Steve Birmingham

[E93]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

1) Absolutely. You can clearly see that the card was altered-just check out the shading in the uniform, that says it all.

2) Yes.

3) I've never dealt with an auction house, so not sure how to answer that one.Maybe someone with more experience could explain who would ultimately be responsible. But- herein lies the problem when someone who cleans cards with ANY type of unknown (unknown to everyone but the "cleanser") chemicals, and thinks just because it can pass through the graders that all is well-just look at the Plank. It crossed over and got a .5 bump. But, when you see the comparison scans, to me, it screams "altered". Should be graded "A". Will this card degrade 10-20 years from now?

Sincerely, Clayton

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

No, no and no.

Did Kendrick get mad when he found out that his Wagner was trimmed? Probably not. Did he ask for his money back? Probably not. If finding out purchasing a $2+ million trimmed card didn't upset Kendrick, why should purchasing a cleaned card bother me? I have too many other important things to worry about in life.

The questions also infer that the card (Plank) loses value now that is publicized that it's been cleaned. Did the Wagner lose value after it was publicized it's been trimmed? Again, probably not.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

IF I was able to pay the money for a plank I think I would pay more for the clean one even after they disclosed it. I know I am in the minority (as shown by the above poll) but that is me. Also there isn't a single card in my collection currently that is cleaned to my knowledge, but I wouldn't have a problem with it if I found out one had been cleaned. I do have some that are trimmed, but I would never pay more for a card that is altered (in my mind altered is not the same as cleaned).

I just can't imagine ever being upset and thinking "DANG IT! I wish this card still had a coffee stain!"

[midwaylandscaping]

I don't buy restored comics.
I wouldn't buy a restored/ chemically aided card.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[Runscott]

I would prefer that the hobby didn't care, and that, as a result, the TPG's didn't care, but we do and they do.

No, the TPF's apparently can't detect chemical-cleansing today, but there was a time when they also couldn't detect the trimming of the T206 Wagner, or at least chose to ignore it, and there's nothing to say that chemically-cleansed cards won't get the same selective results. It was amazing to me how many of our forum members weren't convinced the Wagner was trimmed and we might have heard from some of them in the Dick Towle thread.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

It seems like a lot of the concern people have about soaking or cleaning is that the cards may be sold without disclosure in the future. I address this problem by keeping a detailed excel spreadsheet.

The sheet lists my collection with the purchase price and notes on condition. Among the condition notes are if I soaked the card or suspect that it has been trimmed in the past.

I find this system to be very helpful because it helps me know which cards to upgrade. Also it gives me some peace of mind in knowing that it would help my wife sell my collection if (really when) I die.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

It seems like a lot of the concern people have about soaking or cleaning is that the cards may be sold without disclosure in the future.

Correct! As a buyer, this is one of my biggest concerns. Disclosure. Good post Alex!

Sincerely, Clayton

[freakhappy]

Clayton, I'm not sure that the chemically cleaned plank should have been numerically graded and I'm sure the tpg's did not test for such a thing, but what if nothing shows up on the card as being altered? I mean, I clearly see that the card has been treated one way or another, but other than the pics, what proof is there that this card has been altered? Water can change the appearance of a card, but most people have no issue with it and I definitely see two sides of the spectrum on this debate...does water/chemicals clean a card or alter it? Are you ok with a card that has received a numerical grade that has been soaked in water? I don't soak cards myself, but I have never looked down on people for doing so with water and I'm not ready to say it's 100% ok to clean a card with chemicals...but where do we draw the line?




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[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Clayton, I'm not sure that the chemically cleaned plank should have been numerically graded and I'm sure the tpg's did not test for such a thing, but what if nothing shows up on the card as being altered? I mean, I clearly see that the card has been treated one way or another, but other than the pics, what proof is there that this card has been altered? Water can change the appearance of a card, but most people have no issue with it and I definitely see two sides of the spectrum on this debate...does water/chemicals clean a card or alter it? Are you ok with a card that has received a numerical grade that has been soaked in water? I don't soak cards myself, but I have never looked down on people for doing so with water and I'm not ready to say it's 100% ok to clean a card with chemicals...but where do we draw the line?

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Hi Mike,

In my opinion, you can clearly see the Plank has been altered by chemicals. If you just look at the uniform, you can see this. It didn't just remove a stain, it removed shading in the uniform and also color in other areas. That, to me, is altered. In the case of the Plank, it literally looks bleach white!! I mean, plain old water won't do that.

I think when people bring cleaning cards with water into the issue of cleaning cards with chemicals, it distracts from the topic at hand, which is using chemicals to clean cards. It is almost putting the two on a level playing field, when it is not. Many of these cards have been exposed naturally to moisture over the century, rain, damp basements, etc. so comparing a card exposed to water (in my opinion) isn't the same discussion. I think it's another topic that deserves it's own thread.

That Plank is whiter than any T206 I have, and may be the whitest T206 I have ever seen. It looks unnatural. How a grader didn't notice THAT is beyond me. A 100+ year old card being bleach white.

Sincerely, Clayton

[freakhappy]

Hey Clayton,

You bring up valid points for sure and in the plank's case, you are definitely right, but how about other cards that don't get affected visually by chemicals? I know you are passionate about this subject, but let's say there is no proof of long term effects for using chemicals and all it does is clean the card...what then? The plank was obviously abused by someone that didn't know what they were doing, but I'm sure there are other examples that do not affect the visual appeal. Moderation is key to a lot of things in life, right? So what is there in these "chemicals" that makes cleaning them so wrong? I guess what I'm looking for is the list of contents/ingredients so we know what is right and wrong to use. Can we get a list or do we just go generic and say all chemicals? IMO this subject needs to dig a lot deeper if we are going to assume the generic route.


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[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Hey Clayton,

I know you are passionate about this subject, but let's say there is no proof of long term effects for using chemicals and all it does is clean the card...what then?

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I'm just breaking this down to address this first. We can't have proof of long term effects when no one is doing a comprehensive long term study-so, we may have something like "short term effects". Here is one of the problems. Long term effects currently unknown.

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Hey Clayton,

So what is there in these "chemicals" that makes cleaning them so wrong? I guess what I'm looking for is the list of contents/ingredients so we know what is right and wrong to use. Can we get a list or do we just go generic and say all chemicals? IMO this subject needs to dig a lot deeper if we are going to assume the generic route.

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Excellent question! And, another part of the problem. We aren't privy to a list of the chemicals being used because they are being used by people who are making money doing it. Consider it a "trade secret", so to speak. So- how can you do a long term study when you have no clue what chemicals are being used? Who is going to provide a list? Not the people who are cleaning these cards, getting them past the graders, and getting more and more collectors using their services. I highly doubt that.

So, for me, I am left with having to assume any and all chemicals-and when I think of that, I'd prefer these cards to not be treated with ANY chemicals-detectable in the short term or not.

Sincerely, Clayton