Mystery Solved - Pinpointing the dates of W590 cards

[paul]

The W590 set has always been a bit of a mystery. The Standard Catalog lists the cards as being issued from 1925-1931, and the grading companies label the cards the same way. However, I believe that most collectors who have spent any time with this set agree that the cards were not issued continuously from 1925 through 1931. Instead, they were issued in two distinct printings: a first printing in 1925 and a second printing in 1931.

You can verify this by looking at the captions of the players who switched teams between 1925 and 1931. Grover Cleveland Alexander is a perfect example. Alexander was with the Cubs in 1925 and has a W590 card that lists him with the Cubs. Alexander began pitching for the House of David team in 1931, and he has a W590 card that lists him with the House of David. Alexander pitched for the Cardinals from 1926-1929, but he has no W590 card listing him as a Cardinal. From this, it seems reasonable to conclude that the W590s were issued only in 1925 and 1931, and not in the years in between.

Another example is Tris Speaker. His more common W590 card lists him as a Cleveland Indian, where he played in 1925. Speaker has no W590 listing him with the Senators where he played in 1927 or the A's where he played in 1928. But he does have a W590 listing him with Newark, where he was a player manager in 1929 and 1930. This again suggests that no W590s were issued in 1927 or 1928. Speaker's listing with Newark might suggest a 1929 or 1930 date for the second printing, but that is not possible because Alexander did not begin playing with the House of David until 1931. So the second printing was almost certainly issued in 1931, and Speaker is mistakenly listed as the manager of Newark, rather than being very recently retired.

That still leaves the mystery of figuring out whether a particular card was issued in 1925 or 1931. For players that switched teams in that time frame, it's easy. But to my knowledge, no one has previously explained (at least publicly) how to distinguish a 1925 W590 from a 1931 W590 for players that were on the same team in 1925 and 1931. This has been particularly frustrating for rookie card collectors. Lou Gehrig's 1925 W590 is his rookie card, but collectors have been unable to determine whether a particular W590 Gehrig is from 1925 or 1931.

However, by looking closely at cards known to be from 1925 and cards known to be from 1931, it becomes clear that there is a subtle but noticeable difference. Look below at my 1925 Speaker (Cleveland) and my 1931 Speaker (Newark). In the 1925 card, Speaker's name appears in a distinctly bolder font than the 1931 card, which has a much thinner font, with letters that appear a little taller (though that may be an optical illusion). The same is true of the 1925 Collins (White Sox) and 1931 Collins (A's coach). The same is also true of the 1925 Alexander (Cubs) and the 1931 Alexander (House of David).

I know there is a collector on this board who has completed a W590 master set with all team variations (or maybe he's one card short). I'd be very grateful if he would review his collection and confirm or refute my "font" theory. But just from this small sample, it seems reasonable to conclude that the cards with the bolder font are all from 1925, and the cards with the thinner font are all from 1931. So if you have a bold font W590 Gehrig, you have his true rookie card. If you have a thin font W590 Gehrig, you don't have his rookie, but you have a true rarity because the 1931 cards are remarkably scarce compared to the 1925s.

[glchen]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for looking into this. I've actually been meaning to post a thread on this set for a while. I worked w/ another board member (shammus) on this a while back, and anyway, with a lot of help from Brian, here is the Master Checklist that I've come up w/. If there are any errors in the checklist, please let me know. Also, if anyone has any cards in this set, which I've only mentioned as confirmed in the Standard Catalog, please let me know, and I'll modify the checklist.

[glchen]

Therefore, the above checklist seems to imply there would be at least 3 printings of the set with the first printing being 1925, the second around 1928-29, and the last 1931. The best case for the 2nd printing is the Rogers Hornsby card. Hornsby only played for Boston for one year 1928. From 1929-32, he played for the Chicago Cubs. Therefore, if Hornsby were part of the printing in 1931, he should have been listed as playing for the Chicago Cubs, and not the Boston Braves. However, there is no confirmed card for Hornsby with the Cubs. This could mean, however, (only my theory) that he was replaced with another player in the set, and not part of the 1931 printing. If one argues that there were only two printings 1925 and 1931, then you would have to say that the publisher missed updating the team name for Hornsby and just had a different font for him also.

However, I still like the font theory. Here are the two variations of the Hornsby card that I own. Note that the fonts are different, and the Boston team font does not match the 1931 font that Paul has in this cards.

[glchen]

Just for reference, here's the other W590 Hornsby Boston variation that I once owned, but sold to another board member. The font seems to match the one that I currently have.

[h2oya311]

Very awesome detective work!!

I noticed that the "1931's" have a much grainier photo quality as well (compared to the 1925 issue).

So are there any conclusions that can be made about Mr. Gehrig? Do we know if both font styles exist? Or if he was issued in 1928-29 instead, assuming Gary's theory is correct?

It looks like I have a "bold font" Lindstrom meaning it was either a 1925 or 1928-29.

[steve B]

Really interesting.

One thing I notice that might be nothing since I'm not familiar with the set is that the captioning on the Lindstrom and the Collins White Sox is different from the others, having the team name spelled out rather than city and league.

Maybe a few runs, but still ones that can be told apart from each other?

Steve B

[bcbgcbrcb]

WOW, that is the highest price that I have ever seen a strip card sell for, anyone else see higher?

Mine was pretty nice, think it was an SGC 30, got around $900 for it.....

In my opinion, strip cards that are hand-cut should receive "A" grades and not numerical. I don't agree with what happened here.....

[Snapolit1]

Think I need to pay a lot more attention to Hunt auctions. Lol.

[Snapolit1]

Phil - what's the logic behind your position that all hand cut strip cards should get an A? I realize there has been discussion here before as to how PSA and SGC have treated strip cards over time. But all cards are cut from a strip or a sheet. By a machine 99.9999% of the time. And we grade them and penalize them if the cut is awful. Why should a card cut with scissors be treated automatically like it can't be graded? Why not just grade like every other card, which is what PSA did here.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Steve:

The machine cut cards were issued and cut by the manufacturer for distribution in that manner. Of course, some were cut better than others, if all were perfect, there would be numerous 9's and 10's and prices would drop dramatically.

I'm sure you heard about all of the controversy surrounding the famous $3MM T206 Honus Wagner and the revelation that it was hand-cut from a strip many years later and submitted to PSA and assigned a numerical grade. Everyone seemed to have major problems with that, same theory here.

It is impossible to tell if a strip card was cut last week or 100 years ago. Part of the blame goes to the grading companies, who sometimes assign a numerical grade and sometimes only "A". I am aware of the size requirements and broken lines that must be present for a numerical grade to be given but have seen cards go both ways regardless of that criteria.

[Snapolit1]

I see the distinction I just don't see why it's meaningful. The strip cards were printed to be cut. I can see cutting a picture out of a book and getting it graded as a "card" pretty dicey, but why care if a strip card was cut last week or 70 years ago?

[itjclarke]

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(No idea what this post was all about, weird technical issues on my phone)