REA Gary Cooper

[shelly]

What is enough proof to take down a questionable piece.


Gary Cooper’s daughter, Maria Cooper-Janis, responded to our inquiry and said, “I, of course, have seen that photograph in our family archives, (and) have several shots of Gary Cooper and Babe Ruth at some moment, but none of them are autographed and the picture you refer to was never in our possession.”


Would you buy that piece now?

[Runscott]

Well-done

It's a shame given how many characteristics of a genuine Ruth-signed piece it possesses, especially the straight-edge-like writing, which was a trademark of Ruth's more 'carefully-signed' pieces :roll eyes:

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Well-done

It's a shame given how many characteristics of a genuine Ruth-signed piece it possesses, especially the straight-edge-like writing, which was a trademark of Ruth's more 'carefully-signed' pieces :roll eyes:

Why are you rolling your eyes? The piece is not bad because it was written straight.. It is bad because it was bad. There were plenty of good examples given of geniune Ruth's written straight Scott. That is nice work on this one I must say.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Why are you rolling your eyes? The piece is not bad because it was written straight.. It is bad because it was bad. There were plenty of good examples given of geniune Ruth's written straight Scott. That is nice work on this one I must say.

Ben, all bad items are bad because they are bad. But the characteristics of bad items are what allow us to figure out that they are bad - this bad item looked bad before we had the non-provenance. It has other bad characteristics other than it's 'too neat' aspect, but if I began listing them, I'd have do debate those points with people I have no desire to discuss anything with (I'm not talking about you). I hate to sound like an elitist, but when I know something is a fact, arguing with people who argue simply because they like to fight, isn't the least bit appealing (again, I'm not talking about you).

If you want to discuss, just give me a call.

[BigJJ]

I do not know which is more inaccurate:
the authenticity of the autograph
or the manner in which this was reported to all of us.
"probe nabs" - it makes it sound criminal.
The spirit, and accuracy, of this reporting is far worse than the subject it tackles.
I was really put off by this write-up.
and if this autograph would have fooled many, or all of us - and fooled PSA - and fooled JSA, then why in the world, would you write "probe nabs" with regard to the auctioneer.
The positives of someone bringing inaccuracies to light - must be weighed against the negatives in the manner in which they do it.
On the whole, this report creates more inaccuracies than it resolves.

[JimStinson]

Autograph authentication for DUMMIES ! Look at the autograph LAST do your research FIRST
_____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ben, all bad items are bad because they are bad. But the characteristics of bad items are what allow us to figure out that they are bad - this bad item looked bad before we had the non-provenance. It has other bad characteristics other than it's 'too neat' aspect, but if I began listing them, I'd have do debate those points with people I have no desire to discuss anything with (I'm not talking about you). I hate to sound like an elitist, but when I know something is a fact, arguing with people who argue simply because they like to fight, isn't the least bit appealing (again, I'm not talking about you).

If you want to discuss, just give me a call.

I understand what you are saying but I think the straight line comment(rolling eyes) was a a little personal nudge you have to admit? I like the objective Scott.. Poking a bear can ruin one's day. "Only you can prevent Forrest Fires" So says Smokey.

Dude... I just made that up... it was not intended to be a dig at all...had to post it. haha I was going to call you anyway to discuss a couple photos.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I understand what you are saying but I think the straight line comment(rolling eyes) was a a little personal nudge you have to admit? I like the objective Scott.. Poking a bear can ruin one's day. "Only you can prevent Forrest Fires" So says Smokey.

Dude... I just made that up... it was not intended to be a dig at all...had to post it. haha I was going to call you anyway to discuss a couple photos.

A personal nudge at who? I'm honestly confused - I mentioned the straight line thing the first time this piece was brought up, and other than a rebuke by David that did not involve his presenting anything similar that WAS real, I got no response from anyone.

What you probably don't know is that I've discussed this piece with others, over the phone, so I'm rolling my eyes based on several characteristics of the piece that we've discussed, plus at the fact that it's even up for auction.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by shelly

What is enough proof to take down a questionable piece.


Gary Cooper’s daughter, Maria Cooper-Janis, responded to our inquiry and said, “I, of course, have seen that photograph in our family archives, (and) have several shots of Gary Cooper and Babe Ruth at some moment, but none of them are autographed and the picture you refer to was never in our possession.”


Would you buy that piece now?

Well there you go ! when I was asked about that photo , I suggested contacting Gary Coopers daughter and even posted her name ....BEFORE I even looked at the autograph. Which I was almost certain anyone would have done before authenticating a photo of that magnitute and historical importance. You mean they didn't ???? I'm shocked !!!!
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Well there you go ! when I was asked about that photo , I suggested contacting Gary Coopers daughter and even posted her name ....BEFORE I even looked at the autograph. Which I was almost certain anyone would have done before authenticating a photo of that magnitute and historical importance. You mean they didn't ???? I'm shocked !!!!
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

there is an old story of a guy who goes to an old church in europe and sees a skull sitting there, and the person in charge says it is john the baptists skull.

the man then walks to a church a few miles down the road and goes inside and sees a skull again. he asks the caretaker about it and this guy too says that it is john the baptists skull.

the man says "but i was just at the previous church and they said their skull was john the baptists skull also! What gives?"

the caretaker then said "well, their skull is john the baptists skull as an adult, we have his skull as a young boy."

it parallels the tpa's seemingly refusal to do even the lightest work to check out some of these artifacts or in this case autographs.

[prewarsports]

I have an autograph of Willie Heston on ebay (and another in my personal collection). I was contacted by his grand daughter who told me it was fake because Willie REFUSED to sign anything "Willie" because she told me he HATED that name because he was teased about it since it can be another name for a Penis (true story). I respectfully told he in a nice way that I knew more about her Grand Fathers autographs than she did having collected early Football autographs and owning or handling at least 20 Hestons in the last 10 years and she was like 8-10 years old when he died. She refused to believe me and said she was going to contact authorities and all that. SO, I dug into my files and asked some friends for help and provided 5 different examples of handwritten letters completely in his hand in which he signed his name "Willie". Having completely proven her wrong, she just disappeared, never even bothered to apologize for questioning my ethics.

Moral of the story (and I have at least 5 -10 other similar stories over the years) FAMILY USUALLY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, especially when you are talking about children or grand-children. I would absolutely trust a spouse's word on something (my wife knows me better than I know myself) but be careful taking the word of "family" as gospel in the collecting world.

Rhys

[Leon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I have an autograph of Willie Heston on ebay (and another in my personal collection). I was contacted by his grand daughter who told me it was fake because Willie REFUSED to sign anything "Willie" because she told me he HATED that name because he was teased about it since it can be another name for a Penis (true story). I respectfully told he in a nice way that I knew more about her Grand Fathers autographs than she did having collected early Football autographs and owning or handling at least 20 Hestons in the last 10 years and she was like 8-10 years old when he died. She refused to believe me and said she was going to contact authorities and all that. SO, I dug into my files and asked some friends for help and provided 5 different examples of handwritten letters completely in his hand in which he signed his name "Willie". Having completely proven her wrong, she just disappeared, never even bothered to apologize for questioning my ethics.

Moral of the story (and I have at least 5 -10 other similar stories over the years) FAMILY USUALLY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, especially when you are talking about children or grand-children. I would absolutely trust a spouse's word on something (my wife knows me better than I know myself) but be careful taking the word of "family" as gospel in the collecting world.

Rhys

Nice message Rhys..

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice message Rhys..

I will stay with the Coopers daughter's story. I will also stay with Rons opinion that the signiture is bad. Daughter top authenticator win win.


Leon stick with the card side.

[jgmp123]

What in the world is going on?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

What in the world is going on?

No idea...other than..the Gray Cooper is bad so says a group who listened to Jim and contacted the estate. Also, autograph forgers are so good that you should be scared to collect them and form your own opinions. Oh and Babe Ruth sigs in straight lines can be both good and bad

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

No idea...other than..the Gray Cooper is bad so says a group who listened to Jim and contacted the estate. Also, autograph forgers are so good that you should be scared to collect them and form your own opinions. Oh and Babe Ruth sigs in straight lines can be both good and bad

Ben, I think it comes down to one simple thing. When people try to help each other and understand what might be wrong or right. There are a few people that attack because you might question there knowledge. Jim, and many other people don't need the BS. That is a fact.
I can tell you it has nothing to do what you said.

I think that they feel once you get rid of the people that are smarter than them they win. I am only talking about a couple of people and Travis it is not you.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by shelly

Ben, I think it comes down to one simple thing. When people try to help each other and understand what might be wrong or right. There are a few people that attack because you might question there knowledge. Jim, and many other people don't need the BS. That is a fact.
I can tell you it has nothing to do what you said.

Shelly,

I think a lot of what Ben wrote was meant with sarcasm...

[shelly]

James, if was, it still doesn't change my mind. What I wrote is what I feel. It just gave me a chance to say it.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by shelly

Gary Cooper’s daughter, Maria Cooper-Janis, responded to our inquiry and said, “I, of course, have seen that photograph in our family archives, (and) have several shots of Gary Cooper and Babe Ruth at some moment, but none of them are autographed and the picture you refer to was never in our possession.”

Going back to Shelly's original quote from Cooper's daughter, it sounds to me like this is a little different than someone's grandchild saying "Grandaddy never signed with that nickname" or something similar. I would also note that Cooper's daughter did not make any statement, yea or nea, as to whether she thought the autograph was authentic or not (at least, not in the quote). No offense intended to Rhys, but I think this situation is a little different. What she did say is that there has never been a Ruth-signed photo of Cooper and Ruth in their archives.

I don't know what the "family archives" of the Cooper family look like, or how they are catalogued, but it strikes me they are probably a bit more organized than the typical photo album and firebox full of important papers that most families keep. Even if not, as Jim said originally, "Certainly this photo would have been one of her most PRIZED rememberences of her father." Moreover, this doesn't seem like something that Cooper would have given away before his passing, given that it was personalized, and that he kept other, unsigned photos.

Bottom line is, you can poke at the reliability of provenance and question relatives' memories all you want, but I don't think this is as easy to dismiss. Cooper's daughter doesn't have anything to gain either way, and her remembering whether or not her daddy had a photo signed by arguably the most famous baseball player in history is a different thing altogether than her looking at a Gary Cooper signature and opining whether her daddy signed it or not. The latter requires training and experience. The former requires an average ability to remember very basic details.

Just my 2 cents on it

[chaddurbin]

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

So if you can't prove that something is bad, it must be good. And negative provenance from family members can't be used? Forgers all over the world are making a great living based on collectors who use that logic.

Think about it - this should make you kind of sick: A good forger is sitting in a coffee shop, creating a signed item. When he's done, he can send it to a TPA and probably have a good chance of getting it authenticated. Then he sells it to someone who is unscrupulous, but who has a good imagination and no integrity.

Now all he needs is an auction house that relies on the expertise of the said TPA (and certainly could not care less what people on an internet forum have to say), and two bidders who want the said autograph, and who put all of their faith in TPAs as well.

Job done.

Could I get a refill please? ...and could I borrow a pen? cha-ching

(edited to remove 'Ruth' references, as you can't get the required pen at a coffee shop)

[shelly]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

USC School of Cinematic art. has been dealing with her since her farther died. She was 21 and in total control of everything and anything. I would trust her more than anyone that is part of this story.UCS cant even buy anything from her. They are really hopeing that she will give them her collection in the future. If you doubt what I am saying. Please email the above.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

no opinion on the sig, but i have to agree with rhys. going by family member's account or memory can be an iffy proposition. unless she was the curator or cataloger for her dad's collection, her account is just one piece to the puzzle and not the be all end all to the discussion.

I didn't say it was the "be all and end all to the discussion," but am saying don't just throw it out completely with a catch-all "family members' memory can be iffy" disclaimer as others seem so quick to do.

Was she the curator for Cooper's collection? Does she have intimate knowledge of the "things" he left behind when he passed? Or was she just speaking offhandedly about some photos she vaguely recalled of her dad in a baseball uniform? Based on Shelly's quote, I would tend to believe she is more the former than the latter, but either way, I think it bears further exploration rather than immediate dismissal.

Edited to add: There you go. Thanks Shelly for clearing up what kind of authority she is on the subject. That's what I get for taking longer than 6 minutes to type a post

[jgmp123]

SERIOUS QUESTION:

Does anyone know if any of the TPA's have annual reports that they release? Data detailing Total # of rejects, verse accepts?

[chaddurbin]

obviously some opinions from family members are more weighted than others due to their level of involvement. i'm not dismissing the testimonial at all, and shelly has done some research into the daughter so we can put hers higher up. however if you ask my wife, or most members' wives here...i don't think they can differentiate whether i own a jeter or a pujols, much less a cobb or a wagner.

and the forgers in their basements perfecting their craft on ruths and gehrigs, it won't be for the "cooper ruth" where the lineage can possibly be traced back. it will be some bland 3x5 or scuffled reach ball, so at the end of the day it'll be whether the sig is good or not...and as often the time comes like the ruth 700th hr ticket you'll have some experts believe it's good while others don't.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

SERIOUS QUESTION:

Does anyone know if any of the TPA's have annual reports that they release? Data detailing Total # of rejects, verse accepts?

no data ever gets released from the tpa's to help collectors, ever.