Ethics question regarding buying at auctions...

[rainier2004]

So Im tempted to do this and wonder others opinions on the matter.

My father and I collect little in common but when there is the occasional conflict of interest with an auction on the bay we never bid against each other. I guess there's no formula to who bids on it, but one of us just pulls out of the running...thats not the issue.

In the past year or so I have met quite a few guys that collect exactly the same thing I do. Do you consider ethical form to contact these guys in the first place, prior to auctions ending, and arrange a little priority on who might lay off on some bidding when these exact items end? My debate is if that puts these collectors in a potentially awkward position? Yes they can decline, but Id rather not do it in the first place if its generally viewed as bad form. How about towards the seller? Does it matter who is doing the auctioning? Generally these auctions see 10 bidders and I may take out 2-3 bidders, so does the number matter? And then there's my own agenda trying to get cards. Im thinking this is bad form, but I would never bid against my father so is that the line?

Thoughts and don't go at me too hard as I am asking before any action has been taken. Most of my bb card world is this computer with very little person-to-person contact.

Thanks.

[barrysloate]

It's not uncommon for friends- or fathers and sons- to agree not to bid against each other on an auction lot. It probably won't make a big difference because there likely will be other bidders who will take the lot pretty close to its retail level.

Of course there is another side to it too. How would you feel if you were a consignor, and you overheard two people agreeing not to go head to head on your lot in order to keep the price down. My guess is you wouldn't be very happy about it.

So even though it goes on all the time, and I know I have over the years agreed on occasion not to bid, there is an ethical breach here.

[slidekellyslide]

There are people at local auctions that know I collect Lincoln minor league baseball items and they do not bid against me. Sometimes I get the stuff for the opening bid and sometimes I go against someone that I don't know and pay more for it. I know that I lay off bidding against guys on certain items that I know they collect and are not looking to flip. Pretty much an unwritten rule at auctions between the regular crowd.

[Runscott]

That's cool that you and your Dad have this hobby in common.

I have had collectors 'fish' around with email and PM when they see a card appear that they think I might plan to bid on. If I want the card, I must admit - I'm evasive or non responsive. I have this happen with rare pool cues as well. Same deal - if it's something I want and I know they want it as well, I just practice avoidance. If it's someone who I know will spend an arm and a leg, then we start a dialogue, I wish them well, and I don't bid. I have no desire to run up the price on a friend. On the other hand, it might be a friend selling it.

If you can arrive at a bidding agreement with such a people, I don't see the problem - as Dan said, most of us avoid buying things to flip if we think someone who really collects that item is interested in it. An example is the 'scrap' (misfit) cards that show up every now and then. I know Johnny, Chris, Jantz, etc., are very interested in these things. I won't even bid on them unless it's for my personal collection - I would hate to run things up on one of them, given how much they contribute to researching T206 history/production. It's just sort of an unwritten rule.

[tbob]

I have expressed my feelings before, some agree, some don't, I don't see anything wrong with fellow collectors "stepping aside" for each other on a particular card that is needed. I am aware of the "consignor" argument and I mostly buy cards although I do sell some, mostly duplicates or from sets I no longer am thrilled about, but I still feel there is nothing wrong with collectors helping each other this way. I will go one step further, I don't see a problem with collectors going together to buy a set or large lot and have a plan to divide up the winning cards. I have purchased sets before just to obtain a handful of cards and then sold the rest on BST or ebay, card by card and have also gone in with a group of collectors who might need a type card or a team card or just a couple for their set. There is always the argument that this lowers the final purchase price and hurts consignors but in actuality, there have been a few sets that none of us could afford but we could be vigorous bidders when we come together. The final price was driven up because of the group's bidding...
Just my 2 cents....

[iggyman]

Nothing unethical about what you are proposing. In the glory days of eBay (when you could see the other persons id), stuff like you suggested would occasionally happen. But at the end of the day, it would almost be impossible to get a bunch of prewar junkies to actually agree beforehand on what cards they could bid on.

By the way, I'm all "in" on the elimination of a few bidders. Do you need any names???

Lovely Day...

[Runscott]

Steven, we used to have a regular chat in the evenings, and we were all the time talking about various lots and making deals as to who would bid on what. And like others mentioned, many of us have gone in together on lots, with one person doing the bidding. I doubt it had much effect on the final price, as none of us were wealthy guys who were interested in paying too much;i.e-if we had been bidding separately, we still wouldn't have gone over market value. I remember getting a very tough common as part of such a group-bid effort, when there were some super-expensive cards in the lot that made it prohibitive for me to bid. In that case, I think our 'collusion' might have actually introduced three bidders into that lot who would otherwise not have participated.

[Leon]

I have gone in on lots before and have not bid because I knew a friend was going for a set or needed the card badly for his collection. That being said I very rarely discuss what I am bidding on anymore because the few type collectors and myself usually want the same thing. By discussing it, it makes me feel I shouldn't bid. So I don't talk about them beforehand. Very good friends and I butt heads in auctions all of the time. That's what happens with passionate collectors. Not a big deal. Just like on Storage Wars, whoever has the most money in their pocket can buy the cards. I just need more money in my pocket!!

[atx840]

Originally Posted by tbob

The goal was not to depress or "fix" the final price, the goal was to secure cards.
Apples and oranges....

+1

[barrysloate]

I also agree that if a large lot of cards is too expensive for any number of collectors to afford, but by pooling their resources they are at least able to competitively bid on it, then they have done absolutely nothing wrong. Their goal was to get the cards, and this may have been their only opportunity to do so.

That is much different than collusion. That is done for the sole purpose of depressing the final price on the lot.

[Texxxx]

This is a question that everyone has to answer for them self. Everyone has to decide what is and what is not ethical to them. Legal or not. Way back in the dark ages I had a graduate business ethics class. It was probably the best class I ever took. It was not about tell us what was ethical but for us to figure out exactly what our ethics where and sticking with them through out our life. People will respect others that are not sitting on a fence. Everyone here will have different ethics, which makes for a lot of disagreements. LOL and fun reading.

[Wymers Auction]

Tbob I agree pooling resources namely finances hurts no one and brings another bidder to the table. That is not collusion. Collusion begins when a group gets together and agrees that I will only bid on these and you will only bid on those.

[Wymers Auction]

Murcerfan nobody is preying on you. You are a grownup and you can spend your money any way you like. You are not forced to bid at auction. Many people still buy face to face or trade. I do not think every auction house is ethical, but by no means will I ever believe that they are all crooked. Let's face it we can operate totally within the law and be totally transparent and someone based on their own individual beliefs now perceives us as being crooked and the mindless mob follows along. Next thing you know a reputable house can get a bad name. I know 2 auction houses in my neighborhood that sell hundreds of fake autographs at time. I vote with my feet and stay totally clear of their buildings. I do not even want to be seen in association with them. As far as making you laugh I am glad that I was able to bring you some entertainment.

[murcerfan]

OK, thanks for setting me straight.

I'm pretty new to all this.