F**k the autograph BUY the Cert.

[Piedmont Sport]

Anyone agree thats whats going on right now ?

[slidekellyslide]

Probably true for the majority considering the amount of fake material out there...not everyone has the same expertise as the auto collectors on this board...I'd also bet that most autograph purchasers are not autograph collectors, but they want to have a signed ball, photo, et cetera of their favorite player and the smartest way to do that is to go with one of the respected authenticators.

[Vintagedegu]

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[Big Dave]

I totally agree and have seen this trend for a long time, because of eBay. It has gotten to the point where many times the cost of authentication is so much that the authentication company makes more on an item then I do. Crazy!

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I totally agree and have seen this trend for a long time, because of eBay. It has gotten to the point where many times the cost of authentication is so much that the authentication company makes more on an item then I do. Crazy!

Yup... I really don't understand how you see PSA or JSA holograms on $20 items. Even if the cert was obtained at a show and only cost $8 at the point of signing, the photo itself usually cost $5. That leaves $7 for the cost of the signature and what little profit is left. Add in eBay and PayPal fees and it is a loss.

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Yup... I really don't understand how you see PSA or JSA holograms on $20 items. Even if the cert was obtained at a show and only cost $8 at the point of signing, the photo itself usually cost $5. That leaves $7 for the cost of the signature and what little profit is left. Add in eBay and PayPal fees and it is a loss.

Yeah i see the same thing happen with modern cards (80's-present) too. I never understood why people pay to have a 5 dollar, or sometimes less, card slabbed. The grading fees cost more than the card. Sometimes you even see common cards or virtual no-names graded...Would I rather buy 10 raw NM 1992 topps Griffeys @ $1 each or have one NM graded at the same cost? I really don't get it

[Mr. Zipper]

I see the "buy the label, not the item" mentality in cards and comics all the time. If it's slabbed grade X, that's what some people buy, even if the item presents poorly for the assigned grade.

That said, I don't know anyone who would knowingly buy a fake autograph and be happy with it just because the cert said it was okay.

I try to study and learn autographs to the best of my ability. However, in some cases, I like to have an informed second opinion. Ideally a reputable TPA would have the skills and knowledge to identify more deceptive forgeries that could fool even a relatively informed collector. Whether this is the reality or not is up for debate.

I have been really studying Mantle and learning from experienced collectors since I discovered I had some fakes. In a few short months my skills have grown quite a bit. I will state that I have seen plenty of TPA approved Mantles I would steer clear of. They **might** be okay, but they are not strong enough to erase all doubt. I guess I am saying that a TPA COA adds some value to me, but is not the ultimate deciding factor.

[murphusa]

unless you are going to sell the item why would you need a certificate. If you are not an expert or at least an educated collector, why are you buying anything in the first place?

so you have a Babe Ruth Baseball and you want to sell it, where would you go. If you tried to sell it here would you need a certificate?

if you sold it to some schmuck on the street?


where is your market.

Is the cost of the certificate part of your marketing plan?

Certificates, the biggest marketing ploy ever in the history of collecting.

For the past 25 years it has been a joy to watch a person buy a major league baseball at a stand at a show, buy a ticket for an autograph, get the ball signed then as they are walking out of the autograph area there is a friend of the promoter willing for a fee to give you a certificate for another $7 or $8.

So now you have a ball with a certificate that no one will care about so now you have to get another one from one of the"Boys" so you can sell the ball.

So in 1993 you buy a ball $6.00, get Bob Feller to signed it $12.00. Get Eddie's friend to give you a certificate, $7.00 you put the ball away.

So 2011 you see Bob has died, where is that ball, found it, certificate sucks so I need a new one. Go to show $8.00 to get in go get a new certificate a quick one not a full one $35.00


woohoo now I can sell my ball that I have had for 18 years.

I'll give you $35.00 for it


yes we need new blood in this hobby, mainly to suck them dry

[murphusa]

I am going to start a company and sell "letters of attestation"

just because it sound cool

[Sapper]

First and foremost research is key to being informed in order to make decssions in all we do. With that said before I purchase any graph its got to look good to me, period. Then if it has one of the "Boys" certs all the better. Conversely if it doesn't look good to me I don't care who says its legitimate I'm not touching it.

No doubt paying for Authentication at $20 a hit for basic certs sucks. But the reality of it is if it has that ol' respected 3rd party cert your stuff will sale for more any day of the week.

[Heritage Sports]

There are a lot of valid points being made about authentication in this thread, but I think all of us should be able to agree on a single point (or, at least, those of us who have been around long enough to see the trend). Professional authentication has unquestionably brought a great degree of justice to the Wild West. We may gripe about costs for the service, but the emergence of quality professional authentication has been a boon to the hobby.

[HRBAKER]

Maybe, it's certainly been a boon to the authenticators.
Somebody still needs to explain to me why it costs more to authenticate some players than others (particularly on site where they are not holding the item for a long period of time and "assuming" the risk of loss"). The authenticators don't have more to lose as they aren't guaranteeing anything other than they have an opinion. Might as well say we have decided to participate in the secondary value of the items and as long as you are willing to pay the freight we will continue to.


edited for poor spellin'

[Scott Garner]

[QUOTE=HRBAKER;892037]Maybe, it's certainly been a boon to the authenticators.
Somebody still needs to explain to me why it costs more to authenticate some players than others (particularly on site where they are not holding the item for a long period of time and "assuming" the risk of loss"). The authenticators don't have more to lose as they aren't guaranteeing anything other than they have an opinion. Might as well say we have decided to participate in the secondary value of the items and as long as you are willing to pay the freight we will continue to.


Excellent points Jeff. Well said!

[prewarsports]

I agree with most of what has been said, including the last post.

I think Professional Opinions by respected dealers and/or authenticators are a must for those people who are not experts thenselves.

My biggest complaint is that people tend to think the "opinion" of the top authenticators somehow trumps the "opinion" of others who dont take money for the service or who authenticate their own items and back it with a 100% money back Guarantee.

For example, Jodi Birkholm is no longer a paid authenticator (I dont think anyways) but I would trust his opinion along with a few collector friends I have on a rare/obscure signature than ANY paid authenticator in the hobby 100% of the time! Most people though would just assume the paid third party is right if there was a conflicing opinion.

I think that JSA/PSA do a pretty good job considering the volume of bad material out there and I know that Jimmy tries hard to keep up with trends and keeps large files of examples, no knocking them as I think they do supply a needed service. I just wish people would realize that they are not the ONLY option and trusted dealers opinions are just as good and sometimes better and they generally will stand behind the item where an authenticator does not.

Rhys Yeakley

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

Professional authentication has unquestionably brought a great degree of justice to the Wild West. We may gripe about costs for the service, but the emergence of quality professional authentication has been a boon to the hobby.

Can you back up these opinions--for that is all they are--with any quantifiable evidence?

[tinkereversandme]

I think this has always gone on. People trust the authenticator way too much. I read GU Universe on occasion and it would greatly add credibility if we knew exactly who this "Sammy" actually is. He did (if I remember) say good things about Garo a few years ago.

It's no different then a guy buying a "6" in an "8" holder and assuming it's an "8". I have seen some ugly "8's". It's all about floating opinions.

Regards,

Larry