The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[Davalillo]

Since PSA went to the half grade system, I have been sending in my PSA 8s by the hundreds or even the thousands for bumps to the 8.5 grade. I usually get 6-7% bumped on prewar and maybe 1948-52 with 10% as I go through the 50s and sometimes higher in the 1960s.

As I am trying to collect graded sets each card psa 8 or better I listen to any trade offers to my 8.5s or 9s. This past month, I acted upon one of the offers.

One can debate whether I got the better of the deal or not but the deal certainly illustrates how valuable the 8.5s are becoming in the vintage sets.

The offer was for the following 1953 Bowman Color PSA 8.5s.

96 Maglie(pop 1 with 2 higher)
101 Schoendienst(pop 1 with 2 higher)
103 Ennis(pop 3 with 1 higher)
109 Wood(pop 1 with 2 higher)
155 Clark(pop 1 with 1 higher)

In return the collector gave me:

1) PSA 8s of the above 5 cards
2)PSA 8s of two high numbered dodger cards I needed in the 1953 Bowman Color set--Russ Meyer and Bobby Morgan--which Memory Lane had for sale at $5,700 and I valued at $5,000
3)PSA 8 of 1952 Topps Black Back Gil Hodges(my value $3,500)
4)PSA 6 of 1952 Topps low series toughie Wayne Terwilliger red back(my value $1,500)

So in return for accepting PSA 8s of these 5 cards(which I originally had), I got approx. $10,000 worth of cards I needed.

Again not saying I got the better or worse of the trade but it does show in the right situation the considerable value premium that the 8.5s are bringing.

Jim

[Davalillo]

Whoops--I meant PSA 8 for the Terwilliger not PSA 6.

[benjulmag]

Do you ever get bumped down? If not (and I suspect not -- PSA, to generate the much-needed extra revenue from these re-submissions, has assured re-submitters that all grade changes will be in one direction only (hint-it points to heaven, not hell)), then the tradeoff will be that 8's in time will be regarded by the market place as rejected 8.5's. My prediction for the consequences -- 8's will lose value, the rationale being they were not undergraded as 8's, and possibly overgraded.

[oldjudge]

Corey is exactly right. Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation. If all the 8s had a certain aggregate value before, the fact that some were upgraded and gained in value means that the ones that weren't upgraded fell in value, so that the total value of the population was unchanged. This whole concept was a revenue grab by PSA, nothing more. PSA may leave the values of 8s unchanged in their SMR, but anyone with half a brain would realize that the new system devalues 8s.

[novakjr]

How many times do you think PSA has probably received the same card a few times for upgrade? It's actually in their best interest to not upgrade. Because every card that remains with a whole grade, still remains possible for re-submission. And I think we all know why they don't do the 9.5's. It's because they wanted to save something new for the future.

I could be wrong about the first part. Does anyone know if PSA adds whether or not a card has been submitted for upgrade to their database? Basically, if you were thinking about buying a card, and looked up the serial number on their website, would it tell you if it's failed the upgrade yet?

[Davalillo]

PSA 8s are not cards that were between 7.5 and an 8, they are cards that are an 8.00 to an 8.99. Thus why would they go down.

I think 8s are down on average in value but it is due to the general decline in sportscard values--not the advent of half point grades.

[shimozukawa]

.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you ever get bumped down? If not (and I suspect not -- PSA, to generate the much-needed extra revenue from these re-submissions, has assured re-submitters that all grade changes will be in one direction only (hint-it points to heaven, not hell)), then the tradeoff will be that 8's in time will be regarded by the market place as rejected 8.5's. My prediction for the consequences -- 8's will lose value, the rationale being they were not undergraded as 8's, and possibly overgraded.

PSA has stated for reviews that they would only upgrade and never downgrade a card. Otherwise, no one would submit cards for review for fear of downgrade.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by glchen

PSA has stated for reviews that they would only upgrade and never downgrade a card. Otherwise, no one would submit cards for review for fear of downgrade.

The funny thing about this is........downgrading a card that they've graded would be admiting they got it wrong the first time around..........but in a way, bumping it up a half a grade is just about saying the same thing so much for standing by their grades.

Clayton

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

Since PSA went to the half grade system, I have been sending in my PSA 8s by the hundreds or even the thousands for bumps to the 8.5 grade. I usually get 6-7% bumped on prewar and maybe 1948-52 with 10% as I go through the 50s and sometimes higher in the 1960s.

I'd say you made out like a bandit on the deal, hell some of the cards you got may qualify for the bump. As far as your submissions though, that doesn't seem like a very high percentage for the bump. I've heard that centering is really all they look at when considering the upgrade.

Maybe some of the other guys on this board could add some experiences with the upgrades and centering.

[Davalillo]

Just to correct a couple of things that I think Barry said:

1)Most PSA 8s have been submitted for bumps. I have sent in 8200 and have about 20,700
To go.

2)Reza will pull the card out of the holder if he believes it is altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most alterations are subtle and are not going to be obvious in the holder especially if one is not looking hard for them. I seriously doubt many cards have been pulled by Reza or anyone else at PSA, or by any other grading company for that matter, in a resubmission process.

[barrysloate]

Jim- I am very glad to hear that they won't reholder an altered card. That's great.

Regarding your point that you have 20,000+ 8's and have only sent in about 8,000...well, most people don't have nearly that many.

[botn]

Certainly is one way to accumulate cards but I am glad I am not beholden to the high grade flip. I am also very skeptical that Reza has PSA buy back much of anything but especially anything material.

When the half grade was initially introduced PSA gave written assurance that the card either bumped or it was returned in the holder it was submitted. Those were the only two options. The assumption was that everything they had graded was either right on or too conservative.

[Leon]

First of all, congrats to Jim for what looks to be a great trade he made. I always am happy when other collectors get excited about collecting. That is, to me, what collecting is all about.

As for the PSA half grade debate. Anyone with half a brain can see it was a money grab, pure and simple. More great marketing by PSA if you ask me. Kudo's to Joe and gang for that. Honestly, when that money grab peters out I wouldn't be surprised to see some other great revelation in their grading. I am thinking that if they could go to .25 of a grade, they will make even more money!! The possibilities are really almost limitless.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

Just to correct a couple of things that I think Barry said:

1)Most PSA 8s have been submitted for bumps. I have sent in 8200 and have about 20,700
To go.

2)Reza will pull the card out of the holder if he believes it is altered.

I attempted a bump submission on a PSA 8 1966 Topps Pete Rose from my own 1966 Topps set registry that looked like an easy PSA 9. The card was centered with no corner wear. It came back in the PSA 8 holder (3 cards were bumped from the 20 card submission) I decided to crack the card out and submit in a regular submission. It came back trimmed. I attempted once more a month later and it came back trimmed again. Must have been a fairly obvious trim job to two different graders, I guess Reza missed that one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ultimate act of courage would be cracking out a large number of PSA, or SGC, 8s or 9s.

[Davalillo]

BBeck,

Or else the card was graded in the pre-Reza era. Although I think Mike Baker is an excellent gradfer, things were so frantic in this era I think a number of altered cards slipped through.

Howard38,

There are dramatically fewer vintage 10s than 9s. There are dramaticaLly fewer 8s than 9s. So it would stand to reason that there are a lot more 8 to 8.49s than 8.50s to 8.99s.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The ultimate act of courage would be cracking out a large number of PSA, or SGC, 8s or 9s.

That is almost as funny as Jim's comment to BBeck:

Or else the card was graded in the pre-Reza era. Although I think Mike Baker is an excellent gradfer, things were so frantic in this era I think a number of altered cards slipped through.

[Davalillo]

Greg,

Just so I can be in on the joke do you not think Mike Baker is an excellent grader?

Or do you think as many cards slip through under Reza?

You know I respect your views and you are a tell it like it is guy so please elaborate.

Jim