Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

[wonkaticket]

I try and try to wrap my head around grading but sometimes and every time I think I have it figured out they change the game.

The concept of grading I thought was to bring a set of standards if you will to grading and acceptable practices in our hobby done by businesses and collectors.

But where does the line get drawn on what is acceptable and what is not and why are there still such variances in what is sold to us a global set of standards?

Which brings me to this lot here below, this card listed here was sold last year in REA.

Now the card is being re-listed in its new PSA holder bumped up half a grade. All normal sometimes you can get a bump on a re-submission. But should you get that bump after chemically cleaning a card? The stains present on the above example are way more than a simple dry erase and distilled water soak IMO. If I am correct in my assumption then why would this card still retain its numerical grade?



http://www.paragonauctionsite.com/Lo...=50&category=1

Love to hear your thoughts on this I know there have been many debates on cleaning, pressing (spooning) cards etc. but to me this is example is well above.

Seems to me at this point this card has been altered from its original state, and thus should be AUTH anytime you enhance a cards features through manipulation of any kind at that point the card is altered and should simply get an AUTH grade. But hey that’s just my two cents share yours.

Two quote Steven Wright.“If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone, somewhere is making a penny.”

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Hi John- hope you are doing well.

You are going under the assumption that PSA noted the cleaning but chose to ignore it. I say they missed it completely.

[wonkaticket]

Barry doing well, thanks for asking and you?

I had thought of that also but trying to give these guys the benefit of doubt and not try to bash etc.

But if it was missed that in itself is even more scary. I mean I understand a common card with hundreds of examples going in and out a day missing the clean job. But a card of this magnitude and in the information age we live in with online archives for tons of public transactions. Then take a card like this with a tell tale birth mark that's clear as bell and you miss this seems really sad.

These guys make a decent living how hard could it be to check the net on recent sales of any card in the say 20k+ range that comes across your desk.

I took one look and said that's the card from REA last year...heck and it’s a hobby for me not a business.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Hi John- when I'm not breaking ice or digging up snow, I'm doing fine.

I had the same thought you did: for a high profile card such as a T206 Plank, there should be some kind of database where a grading company can trace the past transactions of a particular card. But it would be difficult to keep up, and so many transactions are private. And where does one draw the line? Sure, you would like to think that every Wagner and Plank could be traced back. But what about a T206 Lajoie? How about a 1933 Goudey Hornsby? As I said, it would be a really tough thing to do.

What the grading companies should do is spend more time grading expensive cards. I'm not completely sure the removal of this stain would have been detectable under high magnification, but for a card worth well into five figures, if I'm a grader I want to do my due diligence. Obviously, I can't say the grader was negligent, but it's possible he missed something that could have been detected.

And yes, a cleaning should have lowered the grade from an SGC 30 to a PSA Altered...if it was detected.

[iggyman]

I think PSA sometimes forgets to put the "CLEANED" qualifier. I will cut them some slack since my understanding is that the chemicals used are organic and contain 99% fish oil.

I can't quite tell, but what the heck is that a scar(?).....running vertically down Plank's PSA graded left cheek??? The sad part is, that looking at both pics and assuming the quality of the scans are more or less the same, I would prefer the one in the SGC holder .

Lovely Day...

[Leon]

If I were currently buying that card in the 2.5 holder I would at least like to know it's been cleaned. For me, and this is personal to everyone, if ONLY water was used to clean it, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. IF chemicals were used I would probably have an issue as who knows what will happen to it over time? And IF chemicals were used I could imagine the paper not holding up too well over time. I wonder if it passes the "smell test"? Nice catch John.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

If I were currently buying that card in the 2.5 holder I would at least like to know it's been cleaned. For me, and this is personal to everyone, if ONLY water was used to clean it, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. IF chemicals were used I would probably have an issue as who knows what will happen to it over time? And IF chemicals were used I could imagine the paper not holding up too well over time. I wonder if it passes the "smell test"? Nice catch John.

I don't believe that stain could be removed with water only. In fact, it looks to me like a water stain, and those can be pretty tough to completely remove. There were certainly some chemicals used on that one.

Let me also add that if you look at the cleaned area closely, it looks a little rough, as if it were abraded. Assuming I can see this on a holdered card viewing a scan, wouldn't you think a grader holding a raw card in his hand should notice this too?

[wonkaticket]

To be fair to Paragon auctions whoever they may be. Leon the card is listed as being cleaned in the auction.

I just saw the card and knew it was one of the 4 from REA last year. I'm with you on chemicals over time and that's a good question.

Anyone know of any methods used back in the day for cleaning cards that now years later have caused more problems than they fixed?

Cheers,

John

[vintagecpa]

Maybe it is just the scans, but didn't the cleaning job help to show a new crease or imperfection right under Mr. Plank's chin running to the right edge of the card? It is a pretty significant cleaning job. I couldn't imagine doing anything like this with such a valuable card.

[4815162342]

Does adding a stain to a card disqualify it from being numerically graded? ...

Did Mr. Towle do this?

[ullmandds]

"Gone with the Stain"...and up goes the grade!!!

[fkw]

Id like to see a better front scan of the PSA slabbed card.

To me it looks like the scans contrast was jacked up to make the stains appear lighter. I bet in real life the stains show up more on the PSA slab than that scan indicates.

You can tell even comparing the PSA back scan and the PSA front scan that the front one had its contrast altered. look at the background color differences. Also the red part of the PSA flip is way too bright, while the SGC flip is about right.

[glchen]

I can't believe PSA would let a T206 Plank slip in at some $500 special. The card is too famous.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by fkw

Id like to see a better front scan of the PSA slabbed card.

To me it looks like the scans contrast was jacked up to make the stains appear lighter. I bet in real life the stains show up more on the PSA slab than that scan indicates.

You can tell even comparing the PSA back scan and the PSA front scan that the front one had its contrast altered. look at the background color differences. Also the red part of the PSA flip is way too bright, while the SGC flip is about right.

Looks like the SGC one was scanned correctly at the proper settings.

PSA scan looks like it was done in document mode. I don't think the contrast was altered. It was just done using a crappy scan mode.

[peterose4hof]

It takes gigantic cajones to soak a card of that magnitude/value. Even if you have a lifetime of experience in the "art" of soaking.

I think PSA should definitely take the time to do a little research when it comes to high dollar / high profile cards like the Plank if for no other reason than to avoid further damage to their reputation. Having said that, it doesn't surprise me at all that they missed it.

[teetwoohsix]

If the owner of the card wanted it "cleaned" and put in a PSA holder with a .5 bump on the grade, that's fine-it's his (or her) card. The thing that bugs me is that if they disclose that it has been cleaned, for the sake of the people bidding on it, it should be disclosed what is was cleaned with. If I was bidding on that card, I would want to know what was used to clean it, that's all.

I actually like it better the way it was in the SGC holder............

Sincerely, Clayton

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

It takes gigantic cajones to soak a card of that magnitude/value. Even if you have a lifetime of experience in the "art" of soaking.

Mystery solved.

[Kawika]

Plain as the balls on a tall squirrel.