Fro Joy Babe Ruth Cards

[rdixon1208]

It's my understanding that SGC or PSA will not grade Fro Joy's. I see graded examples on ebay from time to time, but they're always graded by BVG. What do you guys think BVG knows that the others don't? From time to time I think about bidding on one, but I question the authenticity of even the graded examples. What do you guys think?

[Kawika]

It might be that SGC doesn't grade them anymore. Don't know. But it looks like they did at one time anyway. (I bought this already slabbed).

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Kawika

It might be that SGC doesn't grade them anymore. Don't know. But it looks like they did at one time anyway. (I bought this already slabbed).

Oh OK....I was mistaken. I thought BVG was the only company that graded them.

[fkw]

If you can get a large clear scan of the card, they are not too hard to authenticate.

The images on the authentic examples are much clearer than the reprints which usually have contrast problems.

this is a good picture to use to compare (zoom)
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...?lotid=108654#

[Batter67up]

I think the reason PSA and SGC stopped grading them was because so many people were sending in reprints,the customers were getting upset that they were paying 25-30 dollars and getting a rejection of their cards. I have 3 fro-joys that are graded by BVG and PSA and they are easy to tell the difference from the reprints as Frank mentioned

[Clutch-Hitter]

I used to think the border on the reverse of a Fro-Joy should be a solid line, without the gaps at the corners. However, this PSA graded Fro Joy doesn't appear to have a solid border on the reverse, at least the top left border. The image of the reverse is blurry compared to the front image so it's hard to see the other corners. Just to find out if I had it right, should the border on the reverse be solid? BTW, I'm not saying I think this card is questionable. I haven't yet asked the seller for a clearer picture, and I don't know if I'm correct about the border.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPERB-1928-BABE...item1e5eb9ffc8

[Clutch-Hitter]

IRRELEVANT PICTURES HAVE BEEN REMOVED by Greg Martin

This is the Red Sox warming up postcard, this one postmarked 1917:

One of the guys watching the batter who looks like the Babe but isn't. It's his belt line (edited to say):

[Clutch-Hitter]

I once bought a T206 and thought it was fake because it was in better condition than I was accustomed to (came back a PSA 5). Is this an accurate up close view of an authentic Fro Joy?

Frank, the images in the link you posted to the auction page (sheet with envelope) are very bright. I scanned the card I have and cropped it only.

The image on the left is the microscopic view from the older thread. The image on the right is the counterfeit Fro Joy I posted in this thread earlier, photographed with a macro lens, tripod, etc. Obviously, I couldn't get as close as the person did with the microscopic image.

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

[Batter67up]

Here is one of my 3 Fro-Joys, which is graded a 3. It looks to me like the counterfit card under a miscroscope has blurry print spots where the original one is much more defined (clearer). (IMO)

[Clutch-Hitter]

Nice card!

I was not as close to the card as it appears in the photos. I got as close as I could with the lens and then cropped a small area from the photo after that. I set the camera to capture the images in a large file so little quality would be lost when cropped, however, some quality loss was unavoidable.

The link to the Legendary Auction item showed an authentic Fro Joy that had gaps in the corners of the small boxes on the card backs. Therefore, the link to the old thread that I posted contained misinformation, and that information was a factor in my deeming my card counterfeit.

So basically, I'm now trying to make sure mine is a counterfeit because I owe this guy some money if it isn't, although I have attempted to obtain his address, etc, but he will not reply. Also, like I mentioned, he said he was selling it from one town and shipped it from another in a different state. I did not expect it to look so much like the 1917 postcard.

I'm off today so I'm going to get some cards from different years out and take the same type photos. Any card issues in particular would be good for these comparisons?

[Leon]

I believe the E121's, 1928 Babe Ruth Candy and their genre, will have the same type of printing. I very much think yours is not good, Greg.....

[Clutch-Hitter]

Just picked up an authentic 1928 Fro Joy, Ruth is a Crack Fielder, graded by my new favorite grading company, Beckett. That's right. If a card is located inside a slab with BVG on the rock solid holder, it's authentic, period. Anyway, let's compare the counterfeit Fro Joy mentioned earlier in this thread to the real deal:



Note the box shaped frame near the bottom of this picture of the card's back. There are no breaks/spaces near the corners of the frame (cracked it out of the BVG holder).

[danmckee]

SGC nor PSA will grade them any more. BVG will but I doubt they have a clue. Real ones are very easy to tell, paper should be white and graphics good. You should always clearly see both eyes on the Ruth portrait card. Dan.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by danmckee

SGC nor PSA will grade them any more. BVG will but I doubt they have a clue. Real ones are very easy to tell, paper should be white and graphics good. You should always clearly see both eyes on the Ruth portrait card. Dan.

Actually BVG has more of a clue than you think they do. You ought to talk to Mark Anderson or Andy Broome sometime. I assure you, you will come away thinking very differently.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by danmckee

SGC nor PSA will grade them any more. BVG will but I doubt they have a clue. Real ones are very easy to tell, paper should be white and graphics good. You should always clearly see both eyes on the Ruth portrait card. Dan.

Hey Dan,

There's no doubt whatsoever the "...Crack Fielder" we labeled counterfeit is indeed a counterfeit. Your comment also applies to the authentic "....Crack Fielder" card in that Ruth's facial features are much clearer compared to the counterfeit. Which brings up a good point, why doesn't the "...Crack Fielder" from the REA auction display clear facial features, and why does the box/frame on the back have gaps at the corners?

Having said that, regarding the authentication companies, we've provided examples in this thread alone of who and who does not have a clue when it comes to this card issue.

Look at the REA card. The facial features are not crisp and clear, and the box on the back has gaps at the corners. It looks like my reprint. Am I missing something or not seeing something I should be? Why is the card's back so beige? Did Fro Joys come in singles and uncut sheets, and if so, did the singles look different?

Thanks

[Clutch-Hitter]

I've been gathering information on these cards since they're so hard to figure out, and while there's still more to do, this is evidently the primary source of confusion: The uncut sheet

Note the differences: The back is brownish, more of a typical cardboard color. There are gaps near the corners of the frame/text box that is located near the bottom of the back.

The uncut sheet is the problem because most of the counterfeits we see contain the dotted cut lines on the front and the text box gaps on the back. The backs are not the correct color, that is brownish. The reprints we see were cut from reprinted sheets with the whitish backs we see on authentic, machine cut singles. At this point, I really think this is the reprinting problem, and I would not buy a Fro Joy single that had the uncut sheet characteristics. If a single was cut from a sheet, it would be evident, not questionable. In the information I've found, Repli-cards reprinted the set with the solid text boxes, and that's it.

Some people think all Fro Joy singles were cut from sheets, but that is certainly not correct.

The sheet is at least as rare as the premium, and it should be safe to assume that people left their sheets in tact back then. I mean, heck, they had to send six singles in for the sheet and/or the premium, so why cut the sheet back into singles?


[IMG][/IMG]

[Clutch-Hitter]

From an REA auction, which verifies the previous information:

"During a single week in 1928 (August 6th-11th) Fro-Joy Ice Cream issued a six-card set, with each of the six cards featuring Babe Ruth. The backs of these cards invited youngsters to submit (by mail) a complete set in exchange for a large (8-5/8 x 12 inches) premium card. When this special premium card was sent by Fro-Joy to kids, the original six cards were not returned. In their place Fro-Joy sent an uncut sheet of the complete set of six cards, which featured additional advertising printed below the cards, and instructions on how to cut out the cards printed above. The printing quality of the uncut sheets was slightly different and of lesser quality than the individually issued Fro-Joy cards, but were particularly neat looking in an uncut form with the extra advertising. The blue-tinted premium card was printed on a completely different and very unusual stock. One of the problems for collectors that has developed over the past twenty-five years is that for some reason literally millions of reprint Fro-Joy cards and sheets have been printed and are circulating. It's gotten to the point where it's hard to go to a flea market and not see them, and collectors are now so wary of the issue, and confused by the reproductions, that they now tend to just shy away from the set completely. Some grading companies have even stopped grading them. In the 1970s, before there were any Fro-Joy reprints, a single card could cause a riot at a card convention. No one had them! They were so rare that most collectors didn't even know what they looked like. An exciting find of a couple of hundred authentic cards in the late 1970s satisfied the most advanced collectors, but soon after reprints became so common that Fro-Joys understandably began to get a bad reputation. As time passed, some of these reproductions even had some age to them, confusing collectors all the more. Since the 1980s it appears that the printing presses have never stopped running on the reprints, both for individual cards and sheets. There are millions of them! But there also exists a small number of authentic examples. Interestingly, the blue-tint premium card (which has an embossed bevel edge and is printed on a very unusual stock) has never been reproduced. We have seen only about a dozen authentic Fro-Joy uncut sheets (each with an accompanying premium) in all our thirty-seven years. Usually the authentic sheets are accompanied by a Fro-Joy premium, as they were sent by mail together. This pair also includes the original Fro-Joy mailing envelope in which they were sent. The premium is in Vg-Ex condition with some very minor creasing in three of the four corners. The advertising section surrounding the cards on the sheet has some minor creasing and corner wear, and the bottom left corner has some chipping, but the large border has protected the actual cards on the sheet from most of the wear, leaving the six cards in overall Excellent condition. The original mailing envelope (12.5 x 9.5 inches) is addressed to Lorin Carter of Great Barrington, Mass. Total: 3 items (uncut sheet, premium, mailing envelope)."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/516.html

Here's the blue tinted premium and the sheet from that auction (couldn't make them larger):
[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

[Clutch-Hitter]

In reference to the premiums, Steve's and FKW's opinions regarding the contrast were incorrect. However, they were comparing the Legendary Auctions image, which was over-exposed during the photo/scan process. The second image was resized for comparison purposes.

The Fro Joy Premiums have not been reprinted.

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

Both of these Fro Joy premiums were over-exposed to light at the time the photos were taken:

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

My premium is pictured above along with the others. Here's another example (photographed my computer screen for this one):

[IMG][/IMG]
http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-Fro-Joy-Bab...item23034d8dd4

Note the question for seller near the bottom:

Q: The blue is a reproduction. There are only three complete sets ever graded by PSA of which I own one with premium card. Two sets at PSA 7 and my set at PSA 5. NONE ARE BLUE. THE PREMIUM CARDS ARE NOT BLUE.PSA graded these cards up until about 5 years ago.

A: Just checked the premium and it is a black tint not blue (see photo). Changed tint to black in description. Not sure why I wrote blue. Stockings, belt, inscription and shaded areas are black. Other areas are off-white and gray. Thank you for your help - Norman

Hey seller, you wrote blue because it has blue. The person mis-informing the seller is referring to the blue cards, not the premium. The introduction of blue tinted Fro Joys, of which PSA has holdered some, has led to the notion that the premium does not contain blue. The person telling the seller this has a set of PSA graded Fro Joy cards along with a premium. If the cards are authentic, PSA graded or not, he probably didn't get them from the original owner. Owners of the complete six card set of singles had the option of redeeming them for a premium and a sheet, so unless the original owner had multiple sets of six and redeemed one of his sets, his statement means even less.

The seller changed his description from blue to black because he knows his premium has a hint of blue and the person asking the question destroyed the auction. The blue in the premiums is very, very subtle, but it's there.

Hooray for his set of PSA Fro Joy's!
[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

[Clutch-Hitter]

I've only been able to locate a photo of one counterfeit factory single, and it was horribly done, as expected:



I have not located a black and white replicard single that allegedly matches the description of an authentic Fro Joy single. The only ones I've located are the singles cut from counterfeit sheets as mentioned previously, and color counterfeits of the singles.

This issue is too important to the history of the hobby and to baseball to let the counterfeiters force us to dismiss it. They're not that good.

I experienced those issues from both sides in December: I purchased a counterfeit card, crack fielder, which was the single cut from a counterfeit sheet mentioned previously (knew it was when I actually held it), and I purchased a premium that was later deemed inauthentic (or altered according to a subsequent e-mail) by a grading company. I never questioned the premium, and I still have it even though I could've sent it back. There are few premiums available, so the chances someone has handled one are slim to none. This one is cropped almost to the photo. I sent a message to REA today requesting they take a look at it.

I was ticked off at the grading company initially, but now, believe it or not, they're my favorite. Through all the research, I've found that they make fewer mistakes than the other two on all issues. It's Beckett BTW.

Sorry to keep bumping this up, but maybe this explains the madness.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Regarding this Fro Joy premium, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:X:RTQ:US:1123:

I sent these messages to the seller:

"Hello, the card should have a hint of blue. It's very subtle. http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/516.html
It's also in the description in the corresponding section of the SCD catalog."

"By the way, you have a very nice, rare Fro Joy premium. They've never been reprinted, only the sheets and singles. It seems the person who asked the previous question was referring to the inauthentic, blue tinted Fro Joy cards. PSA has holdered some of those as authentic. PSA has never graded or holdered a premium due to the size of the issue."

The seller replied:

"It does have a tint or bluish appearance when looked at a certain way. I like it very much. Thank you for your comments - Norman"

The blue tint found in the premiums is very, very subtle.

[vintagecpa]

It is too bad the Fro Joy market is so screwed up with reprints. They are nice cards that I will just never bother to own because I don't trust any of them. Heck, if the original plate is still in existence, somebody is probably printing some out as I type.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

It is too bad the Fro Joy market is so screwed up with reprints. They are nice cards that I will just never bother to own because I don't trust any of them. Heck, if the original plate is still in existence, somebody is probably printing some out as I type.

If a plate does exist, it would have to be of the sheet, not the factory cut singles. The cards on the sheet are different compared to the factory cut singles, therefore they can be identified as authentic or not. From what I've read, a counterfeiter could not print them today as they did in 1928. It seems the reprint problem originated pre-1980.

Any single card that has characteristics of uncut sheet cards is not authentic; it is a counterfeit. Amid heavy research, I have only found one black and white counterfeit of the machine cut single, and it was horribly done, very obvious. It was artificially aged and brownish.

As I mentioned before, I purchased a single from a counterfeit uncut sheet with limited knowledge of the issue. But even so, I knew it was counterfeit as soon as I received it and held it. Paypal refunded, and I still have it because the seller would not provide his return address. I subsequently purchased a BVG graded Fro Joy crack fielder and immediately noticed the difference. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have purchased it.

Based on what I've read, a lot of which was from old threads here, the problem has always been that we didn't know the cards on the sheet possessed different characteristics compared to the factory cut singles. Knowledgeable collectors have always informed others to watch out for the dotted cut lines, the text box gaps, and lack of photo clarity, but they didn't know why they were saying that (full sheet characteristics). They were saying that because people were purchasing singles that were cut from a counterfeit sheet.

If a printing plate exists, would it have sold by now because of its uselessness? It is ridiculous that authentication companies can't authenticate this issue. Beckett has complete confidence, with the cards that is.

It's as simple as this:

Characteristics of cards on a full sheet, both authentic and counterfeit:

• dotted cut line on front
• gaps in the corners of the text box on the back
• lack of clarity in the photo, lesser quality than the machine cut singles

Characteristics of cards on an authentic full sheet:

• cardboard color back (like the Fro Joy premium)

Characteristics of cards on a counterfeit full sheet:

• whitish back like the machine cut singles

Characteristics of an authentic machine cut single:

• Solid text box on the back
• Photo clarity on front compared to the sheet, better quality
• No dotted cut lines

Characteristics of a counterfeit machine cut card single:

• Color photo
• Blue Photo
• Cards that are brownish from manufactured aging

Here's one of those repli-cards, which is a black and white counterfeit of the factory cut single. It also has the connected text box on the back. It's next to an authentic:

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

If a single card matches the description of a card on the full sheet, it's a counterfeit, period.

It's not as difficult as it seemed.

[HBroll]

Here is a photo of my Ruth premium I rescued from a 1920's/30's scrapbook. There is definitely a blue tint to the premium. The debossed center surrounding Ruth's image is also a great way to confirm authenticity.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by HBroll

Here is a photo of my Ruth premium I rescued from a 1920's/30's scrapbook. There is definitely a blue tint to the premium. The debossed center surrounding Ruth's image is also a great way to confirm authenticity.

Thank You! That's a nice one,

May I send mine to you with a postage paid return envelope? Will you photograph it next to yours, please?

Greg Martin

BTW, mine is only the center area.

[HBroll]

Hi Greg,
Sure. I will send you a PM with my address.
Howard

[Clutch-Hitter]

Spoke to Robert Lifson today when he followed up from the message I sent. He was a very nice man and was very generous with his time.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Howard, thank you for your generosity.

Hi Greg,

I got your Ruth premium today. Its a nice piece. These are very scarce and even though yours does not have the outside border, the image of Ruth is very nice. These premiums are extremely hard to find in ANY condition. Yours is 1000% authentic.

The first 2 photos (front & back) are with the flash of my camera on and the next two are with the flash off.

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

Hi Greg! Based on the scan, this looks 100% authentic to me. 100%. 100%. 100%. (it is, however, trimmed).
Sincerely,
Rob L
Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com