Opinions: Fro-Joy Premium

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey,

I was hoping to get opinions as to the authenticity of this Fro-Joy Premium. It measures approx 8 3/4 by 6 1/8 and is obviously in poor condition. 600 dpi scans of the front and back are included first, followed by photos of the front and back. The photos were taken with direct flash, which is apparent on the left side of the photos because a large top loader is behind the card reflecting the flash. The card is not inside the top loader; it's on top of it.

Thank you for your time.

[canjond]

I'll defer to those who may know more than I do, but this looks like a creation to me. First, the cardboard just doesn't look right. Second, I would not expect to see the background of the upper portion of Ruth (the "sky" if you will) be printed if this was period.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Jon,

I just found this one on Ebay. The one I posted is apparently missing the outer portion as compared to the one here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1928-Fro-Joy-Bab...item23034d8dd4

The seller's description states his example contains a "depressed center area......" approx 6 x 8 3/4. Total approx 8 5/8 x 12.

[canjond]

Interesting - well I might eb changing my opinion as that clearly explains why the cardboard looked so "weird" to me.

[fkw]

I dont recall ever seeing a fake premium. They werent reproduced like the sheet of cards.
Yours is just missing alot of the border, probably 80%.

I remember it on eBay.

[drc]

It's correct that the cards and the card sheets were massively reprinted way back when, but not the Ruth photo premium. Thus, if you find a Ruth photo premium it's many, many times more likely to be genuine. The infamous Fro Joy reprints problem is with the cards and card sheets, not the Ruth photo premium.

[Clutch-Hitter]

*IRRELEVANT PICTURES REMOVED*

Edited to say that subsequent to this my opinion changed following further research. Respected collectors vouched for Beckett and provided reasons for doing so. Meanwhile, I purchased this:

[Clutch-Hitter]

From a past REA auction:

"During a single week in 1928 (August 6th-11th) Fro-Joy Ice Cream issued a six-card set, with each of the six cards featuring Babe Ruth. The backs of these cards invited youngsters to submit (by mail) a complete set in exchange for a large (8-5/8 x 12 inches) premium card. When this special premium card was sent by Fro-Joy to kids, the original six cards were not returned. In their place Fro-Joy sent an uncut sheet of the complete set of six cards, which featured additional advertising printed below the cards, and instructions on how to cut out the cards printed above. The printing quality of the uncut sheets was slightly different and of lesser quality than the individually issued Fro-Joy cards, but were particularly neat looking in an uncut form with the extra advertising. The blue-tinted premium card was printed on a completely different and very unusual stock. One of the problems for collectors that has developed over the past twenty-five years is that for some reason literally millions of reprint Fro-Joy cards and sheets have been printed and are circulating. It's gotten to the point where it's hard to go to a flea market and not see them, and collectors are now so wary of the issue, and confused by the reproductions, that they now tend to just shy away from the set completely. Some grading companies have even stopped grading them. In the 1970s, before there were any Fro-Joy reprints, a single card could cause a riot at a card convention. No one had them! They were so rare that most collectors didn't even know what they looked like. An exciting find of a couple of hundred authentic cards in the late 1970s satisfied the most advanced collectors, but soon after reprints became so common that Fro-Joys understandably began to get a bad reputation. As time passed, some of these reproductions even had some age to them, confusing collectors all the more. Since the 1980s it appears that the printing presses have never stopped running on the reprints, both for individual cards and sheets. There are millions of them! But there also exists a small number of authentic examples. Interestingly, the blue-tint premium card (which has an embossed bevel edge and is printed on a very unusual stock) has never been reproduced. We have seen only about a dozen authentic Fro-Joy uncut sheets (each with an accompanying premium) in all our thirty-seven years. Usually the authentic sheets are accompanied by a Fro-Joy premium, as they were sent by mail together....."

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/516.html

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey Frank and DRC,
You were right to begin with! Thanks Howard for photographing your premium alongside mine. Thank you Mr Lifson for reviewing the scans and for telling a neat baseball card story.

Hey will Beckett authenticate this now? I need my 50.00 holder!

Hi Greg,

I got your Ruth premium today. Its a nice piece. These are very scarce and even though yours does not have the outside border, the image of Ruth is very nice. These premiums are extremely hard to find in ANY condition. Yours is 1000% authentic.

The first 2 photos (front & back) are with the flash of my camera on and the next two are with the flash off.





Hi Greg! Based on the scan, this looks 100% authentic to me. 100%. 100%. 100%. (it is, however, trimmed).

Sincerely,
Rob L
Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[FrankWakefield]

Greg, did you illuminate it with uv light, a black light?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Hey Frank,

I don't have a black light. But if you have one, please PM your address, and I will send it. There will not be any problems with it. There's more information on page 5 of this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=131343&page=5

Also, just so you are aware, if PSA or SGC does find that the card is altered you will get the same “Questionable Authenticity” response from them that we gave.

Thanks,

BGS

[FrankWakefield]

You could buy your own black light for a bit more than would be spent on postage sending it forth and back. But I'll send the address if you want. If it isn't going to fluoresce when illuminated with uv light, and if it is a fake, then whoever made it used old paper... I think sometimes old paper is gleaned from the endpapers of old books. Everyone here should have a black light.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Frank,

I'm attempting to authenticate this third party anyway but will pick one up for any other use.

The card is authentic. I'm not as knowledgeable as most people here, and I'm aware of that. I've received a few counterfeit Ruth cards in the past and put them on this forum for everyone to confirm so I could get my money back. I never questioned the authenticity of this card like the other few, and still didn't question the authenticity when Beckett returned it ? authenticity/altered.

I don't recall seeing any Goudey Premium counterfeits, any Butterfinger counterfeits, any Fro Joy Premium counterfeits, etc. The bigger it is; the less valuable it is. And I would guess the bigger it is; the harder it is to counterfeit.

I'll do whatever y'all think needs to be done. I appreciate your time.

"I think sometimes old paper is gleaned from the endpapers of old books."

It's old cardboard.

On 2-4-2011, I used a black light and photographed the Fro Joy Premium with a counterfeit Fro Joy card that I mentioned in another thread on top of the premium.