Unconfirmed POLAR BEAR cards vs 1910 COUPON cards

[tedzan]

There is an interesting dynamic between the current list of unconfirmed POLAR BEAR cards, and the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards.
Comparing the missing POLAR BEAR's with the 48 Major Leaguers depicted in the 1910 COUPON set, I would venture to say that 39
of these subjects are POLAR BEAR (PB) "No-Prints". The 39 cards that are preceded by Asterisks in the following list of unconfirmed
PB cards are depicted in the 1910 COUPON set.

Furthermore, there exists a linkage between these PB "No-Prints" and the aforementioned "Quintuplicate" connection. At least 24
cards that were not printed with PB backs were printed with these 5 backs.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350, BROAD LEAF 350, COUPON,
CYCLE 350, and DRUM backs.


The following (as of today) lists the missing POLAR BEAR's......69 cards

The * denotes the cards depicted in the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set.

Abstein
Arndt
* Becker
* Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Washington)
Burns
Butler
* Byrne
* Campbell
Cassidy
* Charles
Collins (A's)
* Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
* Donovan (throw)
* Doolan (fielding)
Downs
* Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
* Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (portrait-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
* Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
* Hartsel
* Hoffman (St Louis)
* Howell (portrait)
* Huggins (portrait)
* Huggins (hands/mouth)
* Hunter
* Killian (portrait)
* Knabe
* Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
* Marquard (portrait)
* Marshall
McAleese
* McBride
McCormick
* McElveen
McGinley
* McIntyre (Detroit)
* Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Providence)
* Mowery
* Myers (bat)
* Myers (fielding
Oberlin
O'Hara (NY)
* Paskert
Phelan
Poland
* Rhoades (hands/chest)
* Rossman
* Schmidt (portrait)
* Starr
Stephens
* Street (portrait)
* Summers
* Sweeney (Boston)
* Thomas
* Wilson
Zimmerman

I would appreciate your thoughts on this apparent mutually exclusive connection between the T213-1 cards and the missing PB's ?

Due credit goes to Brian Weisner, who originally observed this PB vs T213-1 connection several years ago.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

Great work again, Ted (and Brian). My initial reaction to this is that the "quintuple back" cards were printed first in the "350" series time frame and that the Polar Bears came in a little later (even if only a few weeks) as older subjects (Brown and Dahlen come to mind) were phased out and newer images were added. Thoughts?

[Abravefan11]

Hi Ted - Sorry I missed you at the National.

As you have proven some back groups like AB460 and Uzit mirror each other showing that ALC printed these cards during the same print run.

American Beauty Frame 350, Broad Leaf 350, Cycle 350, and Drum (A+B+C+D) are another match within the 350 Only group where we see this. However Coupon Type 1's are not part of this group. There are a lot of similarities but they aren't a match and were not printed at the same time.

The same goes for the Polar Bear No Prints and the Coupon Type 1's. At first look it seems compelling that the two are somewhat linked intentionally but it's circumstance more than planning.

[tedzan]

My notes suggest that the AB, BL, Cycle, and Drum cards were printed during the Summer/Fall of 1910. And,
the "Coupon" set was most likely printed in the Summer of 1910 (as it comprises of only 350 series Subjects).

Now, I think we can narrow down the 1st printing (350 series) of the Polar Bear cards to May 1910. The NY
variations of Demmitt and O'Hara do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and
O'Hara were printed only with Polar Bear backs.

Considering the above facts, an accurate timeline for the initial Polar Bear release can be established....since
both Demmitt & O'Hara played only a few games with their respective St Louis teams at the start of the 1910
season (then they were sent down to the Eastern League in early May of 1910).


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Tim,
what is the circumstance to which you are referring which would lend itself
to 'somewhat' of a linkage?

many thanks,
best,
barry

[tedzan]

Some approach the enormity of The Monster with "fear". They think that it was cobbled together serendipitously. Oh contraire.
For the most part, I see it as the result of very diligent attention by its designers to produce a quality series of BB cards that
accurately reflected the BB scene during the 1908-1910 seasons. When I started my 1st set in 1980, I was determined to com-
pletely understand its complexity.

1st.....I do not think that "linkage" is the appropriate wording here regarding the PB "No-Prints" and the T213-1 Major Leaguer's.
It is strictly a timeline difference. I feel very strongly that the initial PB press run can be dated to May (or June) 1910. Which is
reinforced by the Demmitt & O'Hara scenario. Furthermore, the following 20 subjects (which happen to be in the T213-1 set)
had either retired, or were in transition when the PB 350-series cards were printed.

2nd.....considering that quite a few of these T213 guys' careers ended in 1909 (or early 1910), I would venture to say that
American Litho. produced this COUPON set earlier in 1910 than was, heretofore, thought of.

T213-1 subjects that are expected to be POLAR BEAR No-Prints......

Becker
Byrne
Campbell
Charles
Joe Dunn
Engle
Fletcher
Howell
Huggins
Hunter
Killian
LaPorte
Lennox
Marshall
Matty McIntyre
Mowery
Paskert
Rhoades
Rossman
Starr

This also applies to 6 - 10 Southern Leaguer's in this T213 set.


TED Z

Tim

Mark Macrae and I were hoping to meet you in Baltimore, but we both had to leave Friday evening.

[Abravefan11]

Hi Barry – This situation is a complex one to say the least but I’ll try and give a brief and hopefully easy to understand answer.

There are 68 Coupon Type 1’s that breakdown as follows.
20 - Southern Leaguers (All Southern Association)
6 – Super Prints
42 - 350 Only

We know the 20 SL’ers were not printed with Polar Bear backs.

The six Super prints were printed with Polar Bear backs.

Of the remaining 42 I show the following:

A+B+C+D – 3 No Prints

Polar Bear – 39 Unconfirmed
Carolina Brights – 32 Unconfirmed
Old Mill – 31 Unconfirmed

If we select just a subset of the T213-1’s (350 Only) it would seem at first look like there is a correlation between the PB No Prints, or CB’s, or OM’s and the 350 Only players included in the Coupon 1 set and there might be (more on that later) but it’s not a printing connection like the 350 A+B+C+D or BL460/Red Hindu. There are enough anomalies when comparing the groups that show they’re not a match. The same goes for the Coupon Type 1 and A+B+C+D.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

At first look it seems compelling that the two are somewhat linked intentionally but it's circumstance more than planning.

Ted - What I was trying to say with this statement is that it wasn't intentional for ATC to include the majority in one set and exclude them from the other. It was a matter of circumstance (a printing timeline difference) that they were included in one set and not the other. I think we're on the same page with that thought.

The Coupon Type 1's are an enigma and I won't derail this thread regarding them but there is a lot left to be discussed.