T206 Backs set

[cfc1909]

Ok I am not a T206 expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Now that there is no black bar Old Mills topping the list of backs, lets see what our members think a complete back set includes.

The red bar Old Mills are not backs anyway. They are a combination of 2 backs to make an error. Not an issued back.

I have added two albums to see the scans of the cards. I included Coupon and Red Cross type ones just for argument. I also included a apple green Sovereign 350. I believe this is a different color Sovereign and another back. My reason is it is not just faded green and it does not appear in the 150 or 460 series. The back also seems to appear alot on HOFers.

I need to do more research on the Sovereign 350 back.

I tried to put the album in alphabetical order but it was a little tough to keep in number order with the factory numbers.

No Cobb back because I don't own one and it really only appears with cobb. An argument for another thread.

1. American Beauty 350
2. American Beauty 350 no frame
3. American Beauty 460
4. Blank
5. Broad Leaf 350
6. Broad Leaf 460
7. Carolina Brights
8. Cycle 350
9. Cycle 460
10. Drum
11. El Princepe De Gales
12. Hindu brown
13. Hindu red
14. Lenox black
15. Lenox brown
16. Old Mill
17. Old Mill south
18. Old Mill south brown
19. Piedmont 150
20. Piedmont 350
21. Piedmont 350-460 25
22. Piedmont 350-460 42
23. Polar Bear
24. Sweet Caporal 150 25
25. Sweet Caporal 150 30
26. Sweet Caporal 150 649
27. Sweet Caporal 350 25
28. Sweet Caporal 350 30
29. Sweet Caporal 350-460 25
30. Sweet Caporal 350-460 30
31. Sweet Caporal 350-460 42
32. Sweet Caporal 350-460-42 scroll
33. Sovereign 150
34. Sovereign 350
35. Sovereign 350-apple green
36. Sovereign 460
37. Tolstoi
38. Uzit

Complete set?

thanks for the correction Dan!

[Leon]

I am not sure of the answer but that is an amazing set of backs you have going. Adding them to the Net54 folder was very clever too. If anyone wants to go see a great folder of cards just click on Jim's name and go to his profile. I love back collecting!!!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Jim,

What a great collection of backs and thanks for sharing the images with the board. That's awesome.

Are you asking the board what other backs need to be added to your list in order to make it a "complete" list of backs, or are you simply sharing your collection?

AndyH

[ullmandds]

Nice collection...that was always my goal. The bl 460, brown om/lennox will be my achilles heal!

[barrysloate]

Jim- I have a question about the Sovereign backs:

There is no doubt that there are two shades of green. But do we know if the printer deliberately changed inks, as opposed to the ink lightening during the printing process?

[cfc1909]

Barry

I am not sure. I want opinions. I have not seen this in the 150 or the 460 cards. I need to check who are on the fronts when I see the different color.

[cfc1909]

one thing to note with this Sovereign back,I have noticed that the ones I have are cards that appear in the 350/460 series. Kinda like the AB no frame cards. I am not sure if a front can be found with both shades of green.

[caramelcard]

Hi Jim,


Blank back should not be in there either.

It's not an issued back, but maybe included because you have one?


Rob

[cfc1909]

Leon-I love collecting the backs also,as you can tell. Thanks.

Andy-I included the album so all backs can be viewed and to see what members think about Sovereign 350 with apple green and Coupon/Red Cross type 1s.

Coupon and Red Cross are the same as t206s and the Red Cross would be the only horizontal T206 back. Coupon type one has the same fronts and the same back design as some other t206 backs. Just a good positive discussion and then I posted my complete t206 back set.

[danmckee]

One correction my good friend Jim

Old Mill Brown can only be Old Mill South Brown

take care and looking forward to sharing a booth with you at the National!!

Dan Mckee

[tedzan]

No, I haven't seen any other 460-only cards than these 12......

Bergen
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle
Murray
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer
Seymour Portrait
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


"And finally, I still believe there's gotta be a Tinker Bat Off with P42 back out there, somewhere" ?

Have not seen it yet....still looking, Craig.

TED Z

[cfc1909]

This is from Art M. from 2000.

SOVEREIGN
Sovereign cigarettes backs are printed in various shades of green. There are three different types of Sovereign back: 150 subjects, 350 subjects, and 460 subjects. Within the brand, the 350 subjects is the easiest and the 460 subjects is the most difficult. All of the Sovereign backs show factory 25, 2nd district Virginia and are fairly easy to find.

10 years ago Art was on to the Sovereign apple green and now we have identified it.

[cfc1909]

Craig-thanks for the 42 information. Its amazing what we come up with when we share our knowledge.

[Theoldprofessor]

Gents;

Please forgive the intrusion -- you're way out of my league, but I like to read along anyway.

I got out all my Sovereigns. One 460, 17 350s and 4 150s.
All shades of green from apple through viridan (or at least that's what Wikipedia calls it). Comparing the three varieties, it's obvious that the "150" is in much bigger print than either of the others. Please don't give up yet...

But it also looks like the 350s come in at least two styles, reminiscent of common differences in coin dates;

In most of my (relatively few) examples, the bottoms of the digits in "350" appear to lie in a line;

In a few, the bottom of the "3" in "350" seems to lie below the line established by the "50."

Has anyone else ever noticed this? Optical illusion? I don't have equipment sufficiently sensitive to measure what I think I'm seeing. I hope I'm not making it up, but if I am, please say so and accept my apologies.

It's too late to start scanning, but I'll do it tomorrow if anybody cares.

Thanks for any help you might offer.

Bob

[Tao_Moko]

Gentlemen,

I just renegotiated my corrugated contract and went to the plant to see the plate and print process for the boxes I buy for my business. How does this relate you ask? Well it got me thinking on this topic of color depth and a conversation I had with the corrugator.

The darkness or color depth had to do with these things (best I can remember):
1.Pressure of plate to surface
2.Elapsed time of exposure to plate
3.Condition of plate
4.Color of stock (card)
5.Amount of ink applied
6.Color of ink applied

It seems to be proven that the Sovereign backs have color distinctions (#6).

I took it a step further with my Piedmont backs and compared the ink color used on the actual packs to decipher what the printing color goal should have been assuming the intention is to match the pack advertising. The packs are the darkest blue on the front slide advertisement and darker than any card backs I have. The side of the insert opposite the "Push This End" are an entirely lighter shade of blue that is uncommon to any of my card backs (compared to 67 Piedmont all-series backs but unfortunately minus any Fact.42). The Piedmonts that are the lightest shades all show signs of partially missing or faint lines on the borders and clear spots through the word "Piedmont" that supports low ink or worn plates, not enough pressure, etc..

Seems entirely logical that different colors could/would be different by Factory and Series one hundred years ago and that some colors would be more difficult to match than others. Perhaps green is one of those.

A few questions:

1.Were the packs and cards printed at the same factory? I have matched "Factory 25 Dist 24" packs to the cards and cannot make a color match. Probably due to differences in card stock.

2.Has anyone compared their Sovereign packs to their card backs?

Eric

[White Borders]

It's always been my understanding that the cards were printed by American Lithographic Company in NYC and then sent to the ATC factories for packaging. But perhaps I'm confused ...

[tedzan]

Why the confusion ?

Yes indeed, all T-cards (sports & non-sports) were produced by the American Lithographic Company in NYC during 1909 - 1919.
The American Tobacco Co. had a very close business relationship with American Lithographic.

TED Z