Erasing a light pencil mark, altering in a negative manner?

[Leon]

Ok, I am poll happy today . For this one I want to remain specific for one situation that is being discussed. Do you think erasing or removing a mark, is altering a card in a negative fashion? Simple question and no caveats and no other stuff collectors can dream up.

[barrysloate]

Not only don't I think erasing a pencil mark is a big deal, I'm surprised that it is even a major issue. I honestly don't understand why some people feel so strongly that it is. It isn't comparable to ironing out creases or trimming a card. That's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Not only don't I think erasing a pencil mark is a big deal, I'm surprised that it is even a major issue. I honestly don't understand why some people feel so strongly that it is. It isn't comparable to ironing out creases or trimming a card. That's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Not only don't I think erasing a pencil mark is a big deal, I'm surprised that it is even a major issue. I honestly don't understand why some people feel so strongly that it is. It isn't comparable to ironing out creases or trimming a card. That's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

I agree Barry. And why is it when we say someone erased a mark others come on and start making crap up....."OH, Well, what if someone ironed out a crease or someone trimmed a card blah blah blah". It's like that can't think of something being done to a card and other things NOT being done. Maybe they need to expand their horizons . Most of us agree that the other forms of altering are unacceptable. We can draw a line but many can't understand that simple concept, so it seems. Maybe I am missing something?

[Cardboard Junkie]

I don't think your poll question should include the word "negatively". Everyone would probably agree that erasure of a pencil mark is "altering" a card.....the question is.....Is it a negative alteration? I vote yes. JMHO dave
I feel that ANY alteration is negative!
Leon..I know you have a little interest in rare coins...would removing a spot or blemish of tarnish to a 1909 s VDB be a negative alteration?? Of course it would. dave

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I don't think your poll question should include the word "negatively". Everyone would probably agree that erasure of a pencil mark is "altering" a card.....the question is.....Is it a negative alteration? I vote yes. JMHO dave
I feel that ANY alteration is negative!
Leon..I know you have a little interest in rare coins...would removing a spot or blemish of tarnish to a 1909 s VDB be a negative alteration?? Of course it would. dave

Hi Dave
I feel doing anything at all to affect a card in it's present state is an alteration. That is sort of black and white. I just don't think erasing pencil is a bad alteration. I worded the question very carefully in the poll. Maybe you agree with it now?

Our hobby almost always has a bad, mostly deserved, connotation of the world "alter." This is going against that grain.

btw, Dave, what you said is precisely why I worded it the way I did. It takes into account my definition of erasing a mark...which isn't bad but is technically an alteration.. then too we get into semantics. We both are intending the same definition I believe. I don't think erasing a mark is bad and you do.

and to answer your coin analogy question, I don't know the answer. I would have to see what is commonly acceptable in numismatics and my gut tells me, from you asking the question, it isn't ok to remove tarnish from a coin. Again with the apples and oranges.

[theuclakid]

although I feel as Barry does, what is the big deal....I will say that in my mind if the original card stock is removed or added to, then no good...no re-coloring, adding card stock...or erasing some color near a border area to make a card better centered....I knew a big time dealer who used to carefully erase print marks in white border areas where you could not tell under a 10x Power loupe...that being said, I dont feel those that remove a very light wrinkle or laying down a border edge that has been slightly bumped up is altering because no color or card stock is being added or removed....a slightly bumped edge or very slight wrinkle was not original to the the card...I dont think removing gum, tape or glue residue is a problem unless the originally factory cardboard stock or color has been removed/damaged in the process....I think those who try it are crazy but to each his own....thanks....Bruce Perry

[usernamealreadytaken]

I think it is a matter of degrees and everyone will have their "point" where doing something to a card crosses the line. A small erasure, an "ironed" crease, soaking to remove residue, rebuilding a corner, etc. I have a couple of "rules" that might be good guides as to whether the alteration is acceptable:

1.) Does it serve to conceal or disguise a flaw/defect?
2.) Would knowledge of the alteration be material to a reasonable collector (i.e. would the alteration affect how a typical collector would value the card)?

[barrysloate]

Dave- suppose I'm cataloguing a group of raw tobacco cards and I decide to first finish my meatball hero. To my great chagrin one of the meatballs falls splat onto my T206 green Cobb. I quickly grab a paper towel and wipe the tomato sauce off the card.

Have I just altered it? Because wiping off the sauce is equivalent to erasing a light pencil mark, in my book.

[Cardboard Junkie]

You altered the cobb by meatball. You attempted to diminish the damage by cleaning some off. When the meatball hit the card...the card was altered.....by cleaning it you tried to diminish the damage by furthur alteration, ( even though the result would probably have more eye appeal).
A card was altered when the pencil mark was placed there.
Erasing the pencil mark is trying to diminish the damage.
All alterations of cards are unacceptable to me.

[matty39]

I went to bed with my window open last night and forgot a few cards on the table. It was extremely dusty and windy. This morning I noticed a fine layer of dust on my cards. I took a cloth and wiped the "dirt" off the cards. Am I guilty of altering them?

[Tsaiko]

All my cards were altered, because they were taken out of their respective cigarette packs. Then they got finger prints on them and the dust in the atmosphere just made them worthless. I sent a few to be graded, but they were further altered by being put in a plastic prison after being judged, not to mention fondled and molested. After my dog farted on them, they had to be burned.

Oh,

"no caveats and no other stuff collectors can dream up".

Never mind or NM (which I always thought meant Near Mint).

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Dave- suppose I'm cataloguing a group of raw tobacco cards and I decide to first finish my meatball hero. To my great chagrin one of the meatballs falls splat onto my T206 green Cobb. I quickly grab a paper towel and wipe the tomato sauce off the card.

Have I just altered it? Because wiping off the sauce is equivalent to erasing a light pencil mark, in my book.

Barry- great analogy. i'm with ya.

Dinner soon?

Actually...maybe we can turn this thread into our next NYC Dinner thread (kidding Leon).

[Davy_Kangaroo_Jones]

I own a T206 that has the first letter of the player's name written right in front of his last name at the bottom (it's so light you can barely see it unless you're looking for it). It came back a PSA 4 (mk). Without that mark it's at least a 7. It's beautiful. It's a shame really.

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Not only don't I think erasing a pencil mark is a big deal, I'm surprised that it is even a major issue. I honestly don't understand why some people feel so strongly that it is. It isn't comparable to ironing out creases or trimming a card. That's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

+2

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

You altered the cobb by meatball.....the card was altered..... All alterations of cards are unacceptable to me.

Me thinks you have had too much of that Hawaiian sun.