A new section of the board.....

[Leon]

Sometimes I just want to say something to my friends on Net54baseball and it doesn't even concern sports. I don't feel right posting a way off topic about something not remotely sports related, other than every great once in a while, so I say nothing (which is hard for me to do). So, that being said I think it would be a great thing to have a "Water Cooler Talk" section that is not sports related, so our members can just chat about anything. Sort of like what is going on in Jim's "I'm back" thread , except this would be a legit place for it.

Ok, so I will make a section and that takes about 30 seconds (if there is not overwhelming opposition to the section itself, this is not a foregone conclusion). My real question is this poll. Should we allow politics and religion on there? My initial thought is yes, as that is what it is for, and it will be threads that you don't have to open or participate in if you don't want to. I could see me discussing some of my liberal republican views though I doubt I would go off into religion. So, let me know your thoughts and please vote if you would like to. This will give a good idea on whether to allow these subjects or not.

I have never really wanted this type of section diluting the main board and with our new software it won't. I will also bet that this new section, which will be formed today (probably) will get a lot of activity, though I guess I could be wrong too . It's all about making our Net54baseball a little bit more member friendly. regards

[HRBAKER]

Politics and religion, those are incendiary devices typically. What's the upside?
The discussion is the "I'm Back" thread is spontaneous and of lighter fare.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Politics and religion, those are incendiary devices typically. What's the upside?

If members really want to discuss them then why shouldn't they be able to if it is a designated place? I am open to not allowing them...I just want to hear good reasons on all sides. The one thing I can't stand is not talking through things and making decisions that are ill informed. Hope that makes sense?

[jrog007]

Even though religion and politics are incendiary topics, level-headed, intelligent adults should be able to discuss these topics without malice and ill-will toward others. I think that a section for free speech is a great idea.

[Jewish-collector]

There should be a section where members can discuss politics & religion. Many other messages boards, if not all have a section for this.

I say yeah.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by jrog007

Even though religion and politics are incendiary topics, level-headed, intelligent adults should be able to discuss these topics without malice and ill-will toward others.

You've been around here a while, haven't you?

[WWGjohn]

I resent being referred to as a sociopath simply because I voted against having this new forum section. This is exactly the sort of venom that has often turned me off to this forum. Since I don't post here very often, I'm my lack of presence will not be noticed.

John

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by jrog007

Even though religion and politics are incendiary topics, level-headed, intelligent adults should be able to discuss these topics without malice and ill-will toward others. I think that a section for free speech is a great idea.

Hold on to that Rainbow! You don't need to be Nostradamus to foresee issues with these topics... guys cannot even agree on baseball cards!

[barrysloate]

What we need today is people with fewer opinions about what is wrong with the country. Once the two sides get at it we have nothing but shouting and noise. Nothing gets accomplished today when the left and the right start debating points. The politicians and the radio loudmouths have failed abysmally, and we won't do any better here. Do what you can to be a better person, and turn off the television and the radio.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Politics and religion, those are incendiary devices typically. What's the upside?

Agree with Jeff here. Currently we don't view other members as R or D. Allowing heated political/religious debates would only introduce an element of division. Especially in light of the adversarial tone those conversation have been increasingly taking in the US.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Matt

Agree with Jeff here. Currently we don't view other members as R or D. Allowing heated political/religious debates would only introduce an element of division. Especially in light of the adversarial tone those conversation have been increasingly taking in the US.

I am cool with not allowing them. Lets see how the vote goes and take it from there. I really want it to be as good of a section as it can be...and also be as open as possible. I voted "I don't care"

[wake.up.the.echoes]

...As previously stated, discussions about politics and religion tend to divide people, and can get really heated. I come to this board to get away from those sorts of discussions.

My vote is NO.

EDIT: In a post a few below here, Leon asked for a specific reason for my "NO" vote. The reason for my NO vote is simply because I like to come to Net54 to get away from things in the real world. I like to come here and remember what it was like to be a kid, even if it is just for a little while. So that's my reason why. Thanks for reading.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 19bowman48

...As previously stated, discussions about politics and religion tend to divide people, and can get really heated. I come to this board to get away from those sorts of discussions.

My vote is NO.

While I certainly agree, and know first hand, that these subjects can be divisive, I purposely mentioned that those particular threads can just be skipped over AND this will be a section for off topics. That being said if there is overwhelming opposition there won't be those topics allowed. I sort of think it would be a shame but it is what it is.....

one other thing....if you vote that there shouldn't be this section at all, and give no reason why, then your vote will hold virtually 0 weight. Call that a personal pet peeve of mine. People always have the right to disagree, but to disagree to only be disagreeable, is not something I am ever in favor of.

[dstraate]

Maybe it's message boards, but communication that isn't happening face to face tempts people to espouse the very outer limits (sometimes well beyond) of their beliefs. To my mind, if people want to have political chats, they have myriads of options online. I'd much prefer to keep it out of this site.

Then again, in the end, it's your site. Don't let some one-year noobie tell you how to run it.

[usernamealreadytaken]

I disagree with anything other than to-the-point vinatge baseball cards "talk."


What does a post look like in this envisioned section?: Christianity rocks!...what do you guys think?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by dstraate

Maybe it's message boards, but communication that isn't happening face to face tempts people to espouse the very outer limits (sometimes well beyond) of their beliefs. To my mind, if people want to have political chats, they have myriads of options online. I'd much prefer to keep it out of this site.

Then again, in the end, it's your site. Don't let some one-year noobie tell you how to run it.

David- anyone that knows me personally knows that is not the way I am. Your vote counts as much as anyone's, trust me on this. This will be an interesting vote and topic, in and of itself.

[T206Collector]

....about the personal perspective stuff in awhile, since I came across like an a$$hole last time I did it, so I'll keep it brief --

The less personal stuff I know about you guys, the better. I'm not here to make friends or alienate people. I like to see vintage baseball cards, and hear stories about vintage baseball cards. I like to share my collection and collecting interests with other like-minded collectors. I'm not likely to ever agree to a Net54 meet-and-greet and I don't care if people have to use their real names on here when they say incendiary stuff. When the "post who you are and what you do" threads are being created, I don't read them or contribute to them.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys are not real people -- you're an internet phenomena that greatly enhances my collecting experience. The more personal stuff I learn about you guys, on both sides of the voting aisle, the less I want to learn. But if you've collected baseball cards since the 1930s or have gotten Ty Cobb's autograph on a T206 card through the mail, then that's what I want to hear about -- Heck, I even want to hear about the T206 beater you picked up last week. That's what I come here to see. I love reviewing the monthly pick-up threads. You guys have some amazing collections!

So I vote no water cooler. Of course, if you guys ever do the water cooler, I won't be there so it technically shouldn't bother me -- except that I believe it will serve to divide people more than bring them together, which will then have a negative spill-over effect on the card stuff. I still have a hard time reading about baseball cards from some of the people on here that have in the past expressed extreme political or religious views.

[ethicsprof]

i feel certain that the anomosities engendered will bleed over
into this idyllic world of beautiful vintage cardboard and must vote a resounding NO to r and p.
historically, over many years, we've had the tendency to have ad hominem
discussions most anytime r and p, and a few other matters, come into play.
I say let's avoid this since times seem much more peaceful on this fine board than ever before.
imho
all the best,
barry

[ibuysportsephemera]

I have been part of forums where all of the OT stuff leaks into the rest of the threads. Although I might not want to read the other topics, I always click on new posts when signing on, so I would have to see the titles of those water cooler topics. I come here to get away from "real world" stuff. JM2¢.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

I have been part of forums where all of the OT stuff leaks into the rest of the threads. Although I might not want to read the other topics, I always click on new posts when signing on, so I would have to see the titles of those water cooler topics. I come here to get away from "real world" stuff. JM2¢.

This is absolutely NOT the way it will be. This section will (if instituted) be where the current Watercooler Talk - Sports section is. It will not be on the front page or the memorabilia page. So, you will have to go click on the post war and watercooler section to even see it. I should have made this more clear. regards

[Zan]

I said don't allow either. This board is for vintage baseball cards. If someone wants a religion or politics board they can find another one. That stuff always starts fights and hurtful words always get thrown around.

[GoldenAge50s]

I voted for "neither"--I just don't see how it wouldn't end up spilling over to the other boards after a heated discussion. I just don't think it's a section that should be part of, or is needed, on this elite Net54 sports board.

[Leon]

Wow, you guys still have some great arguments for and against. Whomever said there would be a section for politics and religion didn't quite understand the section being debated. It will be open, not specific, and this debate concerns those 2 areas of discussion...not their own section.

Folks have said "do I really want that headache?" I guess I am jaded because I believe our membership can have discussions and debate without going at each other's throats every second. If it is a go I am still undecided on how much moderating would be done....chances are it would be less than the regular board but still looked at. Someone mentioned is membership or posts down? Quite the contrary. We had 65 new members join in November, 66 in Dec and so far in January we have had 40. We started with around 600 members after the first 3 months on the new board s/w (we couldn't count with the old board) and today we have approximately 2400 registered members. As for posts, I am not sure but I would guess they are up a little bit and the BST is up substantially. So, the board's health is fine. That is not the issue. As I said in my initial post I think it would be good for our members to be able to chat about ordinary stuff, since we are a family. And as I said, there are some times I would like to post about something that is way OT and I don't because I really shouldn't.

Whomever posted a bit of the rules earlier is correct in what our forum is about. However, I think it would be a better place with an area to chat with my friends if I want to, not pertaining to sports. The real debate is concerning politics, and to a lesser degree religion, as it probably won't be talked about much anyway. I mean really, who cares how others believe? That is their personal business and more power to everyone on that matter. I hope this gives a few more thoughts. I will say I am still almost 50/50 in my thinking of allowing the politics to be discussed. I thought it would be a bit more on the affirmative side but no, after reading everyone's thoughts, I am back to square one on the issue. Also, no, there is no burning desire to post some extraordinary circumstance. If there was I would just use my "freebie" pass for an OT and do it. This is more of a longer term solution to make the board better. That is all. Thanks to all who have voiced opinions so far. They are appreciated very much. regards

[Tsaiko]

Water Coolers Suck! See, it's already getting nasty

Reading the responses from other board members, it seems that they are the kind of people that have a good grip on their self control, so I can't see them dragging down a friendly debate. Unless a no vote is their way of saying, "No, please don't tempt my inner a$$h@le"

I voted Don't Care. I won't get involved in a heated opinion debate anyway.

As a social experiment, if this section does exist for a period of time, we might find out that people of a particular party collect specific cards more than people of another party. That would be weird, wouldn't it? You might hear angry remarks like, "You left winged T206ers are all alike...." Or not

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by Tsaiko

"You left winged T206ers are all alike...." Or not

The problem with society today is those damn Right Wing Old Judge Collectors...

[ValKehl]

Leon - I voted "yes" to both before reading all the posts, because I know that I can read your liberal Republican (do I sense an oxymoron here?) views without going ballistic on you, and I'm sure you can react likewise when you read my conservative Democrat views!

But, after reading all the posts, I now think it would be best not to allow either because these two subjects are too divisive - why risk ruining the good thing that you/we have going?!

Having said this, I suggest that if you do allow both, that you establish separate sections for each in addition to the water cooler section (in which neither politics nor religion would be permitted).
Val

[ethicsprof]

as i said in my earlier post, i have been on this board for a number of years and am amazed and happy to see how much less the ad hominem has been in the last couple of years with the new forum.
the discussions and scholarship regarding the beautiful pieces of cardboard
have excelled in many ways, too, even though we have many who come on board as admitted newbies.
I like what we've become.
I remember full well over the years when discussions of religion and politics slipped in.
These tended to be the worst of times for our board with ad hominem at its height.
I say that we stay loyal to the cardboard.
And by doing so, I believe we will continue to stay loyal to each other as colleagues, friends, and family---the last word underscored ably by Leon---
without ad hominem.
My dear friend, Barry Sloate, i'm surprised that you indicate a 30 day trial, for
i've seen you deeply hurt at some comments in the area of religion over the years. I,too, was hurt by the comments. I don't want this to happen to you or anyone again.
I've said enough. I'll be on this board for ages---just like i've already been on it for ages---no matter what is decided. The one who mentioned Pandora's box earlier speaks to the heart of my own fear.
all the best,
barry

[Butch7999]

Posts 2, 4, 7, 11, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 24, 26, 28, 29, 33, 34, 43, 44, 49, 51, 56, 57, 58, 60, 64, 69, and most especially 19 and 50, speak for us. An Anything-Goes (sub)forum will instantly invite politics and religion as the main topics there. Vehement animosity on a politics/religion forum is inevitable, and the ill feelings that will generate will inevitably and unstoppably spill over onto the main boards and the relationships between members. We know from experience. We run our own little podunk forums. So we vote no, just to encourage Leon not to entertain the idea any further. That said, we hate being told how to run our forums, and this forum is Leon's, so it's entirely his call. He can, and should, do as he likes and as he thinks best.

[teetwoohsix]

I voted in the "I don't care,do what you want to" section, mostly because I can't make up my mind. I see both sides, the pros and cons. But I also agree that if you don't want to participate in it, just don't click on it .

I'm sure other topics would be going on in there, maybe other than religion and politics? I've often wondered how many board members are into the show on the History channel called "Ancient Aliens"........I love that show- to me, it is fascinating (just an example )

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Hi Barry- I was hurt over some comments about religion? You know, I don't remember. In fact, I can't even recall a discussion we've had on the board regarding it. Politics yes, but not religion. Is it just the old memory not working?

It doesn't matter whether or not Leon does decide to expand the board, because the fact is nobody has to even look at a new section if they so choose. I never look at the golf section, and if someone discovered the cure for cancer and posted it there I wouldn't even know about it.

You can either read and participate in a political debate; or just read and not participate; or not even open it at all. In that respect, there's no harm in Leon starting a new area of the board.

[calvindog]

Barry, we know you haven't been watching the Golf section -- we've been killing you in there the past few months. Carry on.

[Davalillo]

I voted no religion and no politics. It brings on arguments and noone's mind is ever changed. I would participate in water cooler if it was about music or some other topic but when it gets into politics especially it can become nasty. I want all aspects on net 54 to be enjoyable and nin-stressful.

Jim

[calvindog]

Jim! Welcome back.

[WWGjohn]

Having seen the level of civility that has appeared on this board over the last few years when any serious (or not so serious) controversy has occurred, I think this new section is a Pandora's box, especially if the subjects of religion and politics are allowed. There are plenty of other public forums where people can rant and rave all they want on these topics. I like the board the way it is now and I would not like to be the moderator trying to keep a lid on potentially explosive rhetoric if this new section comes to pass.

John

[T206Collector]

If we all come here because of our joint love for pre-war cardboard, it is foolish to think that any other discussion will bring us closer together.

[iggyman]

I don't think it's needed, and I'm real sure it will not enhance this forum in any way. Quite the opposite might happen, so I voted "please forget about it".

Why in the heck, would I ever feel the need to discuss whether it actually really really snows in Hawaii, with a bunch of baseball card aficionados. I can find a thousand people to discuss snow in Hawaii, but if I run into a prehistoric baseball card dude, I'm talking baseball cards. Simple as that!

Lovely Day...

[Frank A]

There is no such thing as an adult conversation when it comes to these two topics. They may start out that way but seldom end in such an easy fashion. By the end of most of these conversations guys are screaming in their own homes and pulling out their hair, and I can't afford to pull any out. I voted no on both ends, but I know if they are on here I will have to visit. OH Lord. Frank

[Doug]

I went with "I don't care, do what you want to", but then again I'm not really religious, politically inclined or easily offended.

[barrysloate]

Here's something funny regarding the internet:

I just clicked on Google News and went to a story about Mayor Bloomberg and the snowstorm we just had. Some of you may know that he really screwed up the blizzard cleanup a few weeks ago so all eyes are on him today (we had about 8-10 inches last night). Would you believe at the end of the article people are commenting, and they're cursing and fighting with each other...over a snowfall! How can you get combative over such a benign topic? What is it about internet chat boards that often brings out the worst in people? Compared to some of these sites, Net54 is like the boy scouts. I think we are the best behaved internet group around!

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Doug

I went with "I don't care, do what you want to", but then again I'm not really religious, politically inclined or easily offended.

Well said Doug !!

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by iggyman

I don't think it's needed, and I'm real sure it will not enhance this forum in any way. Quite the opposite might happen, so I voted "please forget about it".

Why in the heck, would I ever feel the need to discuss whether it actually really really snows in Hawaii, with a bunch of baseball card aficionados. I can find a thousand people to discuss snow in Hawaii, but if I run into a prehistoric baseball card dude, I'm talking baseball cards. Simple as that!

Lovely Day...

It does indeed snow in Hawaii. Probably doing so right now on Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa on the Big Island as we are presently experiencing a very wet and unpleasant winter storm at lower elevations. That and anybody who doesn't agree with me sucks.

[tothrk]

I voted yes to both. It's not like anyone is holding you at gunpoint to read this section if you don't want to. I feel it will be worth it to watch Brucii make at least a few posts. If this section turns into an absolute nightmare, it can always be shut down. Arguments happen all the time, everywhere. I enjoy discussing politics & feel I can have an intelligent and constructive discussion here more than anywhere else.

[barrysloate]

I don't think Bruce will be doing any posting around here.

[Fred]

We're all adults until we strongly (vehemently) disagree with someone about politics or religion. Then the gloves come off and people lose all control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO_QntXc-c4

Ya know, when's the last time we saw a good train wreck of a thread?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by iggyman

I don't think it's needed, and I'm real sure it will not enhance this forum in any way. Quite the opposite might happen, so I voted "please forget about it".

Why in the heck, would I ever feel the need to discuss whether it actually really really snows in Hawaii, with a bunch of baseball card aficionados. I can find a thousand people to discuss snow in Hawaii, but if I run into a prehistoric baseball card dude, I'm talking baseball cards. Simple as that!

Lovely Day...

Easy solution. You don't have to look at it....

As far as why vote if it won't be used......because it helps make a more informed decision. Does that answer that question? As of right now I have changed my mind and am leaning to not allowing politics or religion on that section.

[oldjudge]

I see no benefit in adding this section and many potential problems. Everything should be done to encourage more vinatage card talk, not to offer alternatives to it. Is the purpose of the board to maximize vintage card interest or to maximize eyeballs? If it is the latter the new area may make sense; I hope that is not the case.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I see no benefit in adding this section and many potential problems. Everything should be done to encourage more vinatage card talk, not to offer alternatives to it. Is the purpose of the board to maximize vintage card interest or to maximize eyeballs? If it is the latter the new area may make sense; I hope that is not the case.

Jay, as stated earlier, and evidenced by the 93.4% approval voting for this section, I feel this is a family. Family can talk about other things than baseball cards. You don't ever, ever have to look at that section. I find it hard to understand why people want to deny others from doing something they want to do that is harmless. It makes 0 sense to me. Please help me understand why you don't want me to chat with my friends when you neither have to look at that area or be involved in it? regards

[sealmark2]

Leon:

There is plenty of B.S. dialogue already on the news, radio, TV, facebook, Twitter etc ad nuseum and you have a great site here. Why muck it up?

We have Beck, Olberman, Matthews, O'Rielly, Savage, Kos ad infnitum for those who are couch bound. Please leave N54 as it was intended.

In view of last weekends events in Tucson this would be a major mistake in my opinion. Pretty soon some 54's will be attacking each other for absolutely no benefit.

Mark K. Bowers
sealmark

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by sealmark

Leon:


We have Beck, Olberman, Matthews, O'Rielly, Savage, Kos ad infnitum for those who are couch bound. Please leave N54 as it was intended.

Mark K. Bowers
sealmark

You forgot Kent Brockman

[Fred]

Here we go...
Here we go...
Here we go...

I started a thread regarding poitics in the Water Cooler section!