Eddie Cicotte's HOF chances - should he get in? Will he?

[jsfriedm]

Thoughts?

[darwinbulldog]

No. And no. Setting aside what he's best known for, even his stats don't quite cut it for me. I'll eat my hat if he gets more than 2 votes.

[G1911]

No, no. He’s a borderline choice, a low end HOFer if he makes it. Doubt he gets anywhere even if he makes a committee ballot. Unlike Jackson and Rose it’s not clear he would be in if he hadn’t rigged games or bet. I think we should be done with deadball pitchers at this point.

[scotgreb]

Cicotte, Ed 1909 E95 PSA 1-5 28639774.jpg

[molenick]

Cicotte I think falls in that group of pitchers where it seems almost random why someone is in and someone is not. Why are Rube Marquard and Jack Chesbro in and not Babe Adams, Wilbur Cooper, Jesse Tannehill, Wes Ferrell, etc., etc.?

That being said, if you have any faith in Baseball Reference rankings, he is nestled right there with several HOFers.

[ThomasL]

Chesbro is in bc of 1 amazing season and Marquard bc he played in a New York market (as did Chesbro) and was one of those Veterans Committee elections that Frankie Fisch pushed with his click to get a lot of former Giants and Cardinals in that probably didnt deserve it

[Jsquared123]

He's borderline with a high peak. There are worse pitchers in and better ones not.

If you give him credit for another solid 2 years or so, he's in. If you don't.. he's not.

[ThomasL]

Borderline candidate

some credit him with inventing the knuckleball and based on the fact that Candy Cummings is in the HOF for just "inventing" the curve ball you could argue that is enough...but Cicotte had good peak years and solid career ERA w borderline win total.

I'd vote for Cicotte but doubt he gets 5 votes which is required to stay on the ballot.

Cicotte's role in the 1919 WS fix is much more damnable than Joe Jackson's which should hurt Cicotte's chances

Cicotte was a primary and possibly THE primary fixer as many believe it was his idea.

[parkplace33]

No and No. I also think that Shoeless Joe doesn't get in as well.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Borderline candidate

some credit him with inventing the knuckleball and based on the fact that Candy Cummings is in the HOF for just "inventing" the curve ball you could argue that is enough...but Cicotte had good peak years and solid career ERA w borderline win total.

I'd vote for Cicotte but doubt he gets 5 votes which is required to stay on the ballot.

Cicotte's role in the 1919 WS fix is much more damnable than Joe Jackson's which should hurt Cicotte's chances

Cicotte was a primary and possibly THE primary fixer as many believe it was his idea.

Well Said Thomas
and eligible does not mean deserving and eligible does not take away to me the degree of the guilt/involvment of his role in the Fix

[ThomasL]

In 1956 columnist Westbrook Pegler wrote a series of articles on the Black Sox scandal and interviewed several 1919 Sox players including Eddie Cicotte. Cicotte said he was paid well ($10,000) but others werent (citing Lefty Williams and Ed Walsh) Here it is, sorry for the large upload image hope that is ok (leon)

In his first article of this series Pegler has a great line

"Jackson, Fred McMullin, a substitute infielder, and Weaver, are gone. American public opinion buried them in a quick-lime of moralistic scorn..."

[DaveW]

Interesting article! Thanks for posting it.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

In 1956 columnist Westbrook Pegler wrote a series of articles on the Black Sox scandal and interviewed several 1919 Sox players including Eddie Cicotte. Cicotte said he was paid well ($10,000) but others werent (citing Lefty Williams and Ed Walsh) Here it is, sorry for the large upload image hope that is ok (leon)

In his first article of this series Pegler has a great line

"Jackson, Fred McMullin, a substitute infielder, and Weaver, are gone. American public opinion buried them in a quick-lime of moralistic scorn..."

That is awesome. Pegler writes in a way that makes you feel like you're right there, listening to Eddie Cicotte talk.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Interesting article! Thanks for posting it.

Originally Posted by jingram058

That is awesome.

Very interesting and enjoyable article. Do you have the other four pieces? If so, I hope you post them. Learned a thing or two, particularly that he brought up Cobb to the Bigs with him. Cicotte's description of his control was amazing. Talking in quarter-inches. Imagine that. Still don't know how to pronounce Cicotte. Am sticking with See-cott.

[paul]

If Cicotte makes it into the HOF, I will be very surprised. People forget that Cicotte was eligible from 1936 until about 1991 when the HOF passed the rule barring all players on MLB's permanent ineligible list. In all that time, as far as I can tell, he never received a single vote from the writers, and he was never elected by any of the veterans' committees. I suspect he never got any votes from the veterans' committees, but they had secret ballots at the time, so I can't know for sure.

It seems to me that the writers and committees repeatedly made the judgment that Cicotte is not worthy of the HOF because he deliberately threw the World Series. Unless today's veterans' committee has a wildly different opinion about the morality of throwing a World Series, the vote today will be the same.

Pete Rose is a different case because the writers and veterans' committees have never decided whether Rose's sins should keep him out of the HOF.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by paul

If Cicotte makes it into the HOF, I will be very surprised. People forget that Cicotte was eligible from 1936 until about 1991 when the HOF passed the rule barring all players on MLB's permanent ineligible list. In all that time, as far as I can tell, he never received a single vote from the writers, and he was never elected by any of the veterans' committees. I suspect he never got any votes from the veterans' committees, but they had secret ballots at the time, so I can't know for sure.

It seems to me that the writers and committees repeatedly made the judgment that Cicotte is not worthy of the HOF because he deliberately threw the World Series. Unless today's veterans' committee has a wildly different opinion about the morality of throwing a World Series, the vote today will be the same.

Pete Rose is a different case because the writers and veterans' committees have never decided whether Rose's sins should keep him out of the HOF.

What about Jackson? Is his situation different?