are they real- Jennings, Cooper, Nichols

[theshleps]

Most of us have a few items we question in our collection. I'd like your opinion on these.
Collins- not mine but looks decent to me but rejected by PSA
Nichols- had for awhile, skeptical but hope you folks like it rejected JSA
Bancroft- had for awhile, skeptical but hope you folks like it rejected PSA
Jennings- bough 15 years ago from long time collector Ernie Stautmeyer- skeptical- if you guys do not like it will probably just sell as a T206 w/o signature
Cooper- this was purchased from Negro League expert WAyne Stivers many years ago and to me matches the one in Keatings book. Rejected recently by PSA
Hanlon is from Jim Stinson who got it from Bill Zekus collection before Hanlon made HOF. Jim swears by it and claims it is a variant Hanlon sometimes used. I just spoke to him about it when he was ij the states for a few days
Open to selling the Cooper and Hanlon (have Stivers COA for Cooper and catalogue page of Stinson for Hanlon along with an email from Jim)
Thanks in advance for responding. see 2nd post for rest of pix
net54 collins.jpg

cooper andy.jpg

net54jennings.jpg

[theshleps]

this is the one in Keatings book to compare
ner54 andy.jpg

net54 hanlon.jpg

[btcarfagno]

No

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Actually the Hanlon maybe. Not a fan of anything else though.

Tom C

[Duluth Eskimo]

The easy way out is to agree with PSA, but I think they're right on all of them. I'm sure Jim is more of an expert than most people involved in autographs, but I would have a hard time convincing myself that Hanlon was good either. The pen pressure looks just too heavy for something signed late in life. I have no opinion on different styles of his signature.

[packs]

I wouldn't buy them.

[Runscott]

Collins and Bancroft are bad.

Nothing I am reading here convinces me that the Cooper is bad - Wayne Stivers is a better authority on Negro League autographs than Kevin Keating and the photo you provided is not clear enough to judge it. Doesn't mean it's good, but also doesn't mean it's bad. When an 'expert' won't say why they have an opinion, their opinion doesn't mean much, and I have plenty of books in my bookshelf that are full of errors.

[Bcwcardz]

Here is my question with TPA. What are their qualifications for saying a signature is authentic? What makes you qualified? There is a lot of money involved here and that makes everything these authenticators do suspicious. Many take their word as gospel and spend lots of money are signatures that are deemed authentic. I just always wonder how many of these vintage signatures are actually real. I would figure most are not regardless of what these so called experts say. There is just way too much money involved for all this to be above board

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[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by Bcwcardz

Here is my question with TPA. What are their qualifications for saying a signature is authentic? What makes you qualified? There is a lot of money involved here and that makes everything these authenticators do suspicious. Many take their word as gospel and spend lots of money are signatures that are deemed authentic.

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The answer is complicated in some ways but let me say that their only qualification that is required is having some background in the hobby , having a fairly clean reputation AND Mainly having the buyers and sellers faith . Unlike a doctor , dentist , lawyer , CPA , broker or any profession that requires licensing and a board to have oversight over the profession the TPAs rely on a trust created by the illusion of expertise . Any person can call themselves an autograph authenticator or expert but there is no standard by which that statement can be validated in our hobby . It is an illusion of trust created by the TPA. Money rules our hobby to a great degree and much rides on these opinions from TPAs and they know it and they wield their power , influence and the knowledge that deals happen or not depending on them with a knowledge that there is little or no recourse to them. Also their responsibilities lie in an opinion but that opinion has no validity if at times the authenticator moves to a different company .
As always the best advice is to try to educate yourself, find people you trust to help you, but remember you are ultimately responsible for your purchases; buy legal documents when possible , get items signed in person when possible BUT mainly don't buy an item if you can't afford to lose the money you spent to buy an item if you find out later that the item isn't authentic regardless if it comes from a TPA because getting money back from them can be an exercise on futility.

[Bcwcardz]

I agree with the illusion part. Another problem I have is most of these " experts" are also collectors of the same stuff they certify. This I find highly unethical. I have the same opinion about the card graders who are also probably collectors of cards. It just seems like its a big can of worms and difficult for the average collector to navigate.

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[packs]

Why would that be unethical? Personally I'd prefer someone with hobby experience. Some scientist isn't going to know hobby history and isn't going to know who to scrutinize because they're heavily forged. Also I see no direct conflict of interest between a person certing an autograph that isn't for sale.

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by packs

Why would that be unethical? Personally I'd prefer someone with hobby experience. Some scientist isn't going to know hobby history and isn't going to know who to scrutinize because they're heavily forged. Also I see no direct conflict of interest between a person certing an autograph that isn't for sale.

I just find it that way because they can certify their own pieces plus those of their friends. They stand to make lots of money. You know once an auto goes under that plastic it becomes authentic for life regardless if it is. Worthless pieces of paper can be turned into a treasure if just 1 person is doing bad stuff and in this hobby thats highly likely. Of course this is just my opinion of what could be a problem regarding this.

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[packs]

I don't know how the authenticating process works but I would be surprised if an authenticator knows the name of the person who submitted items for authentication. That would certainly be a conflict of interest but I would assume the hobby has figured that out and uses a blind submission process. I could be wrong though, but I hope I'm not.