1888 N173 Glass Slide Negatives

[Saco River Auction]

Up For auction January 14 2015@5PM are a collection of 48 Glass Slide Negatives used to create the Goodwin and Company Old Judge N173 Cards.

They came from an estate in Vermont. The photos you will see below are a result of shooting the glass slides on a lighted table and reversing the image.

We have printed 8x10's for each glass slide and 12x18's as a way to display the product in the hall. Each winning bidder will get these prints included with the slide.

As I said there are 48 of these in various poses of various players.

[prewarsports]

Do you have more history of these items?

Can you send a scan of a complete negative with all its borders and not enhanced by light?

What are the sizes of the glass plates?

I am curious because knowing how these images (the negatives) and the baseball cards were produced it would be highly unlikely that a hoard of various teams (from completely different photographers) would have ever been in one place at one time. Goodwin and company would have probably never been in possession of the negatives and only bought images from the individual photographers in developed form and then used these images to make their cards and as such would have their own negatives. The individual photographers would have remained in possession of their negatives. Since you appear to have several teams represented from several different photographers I am curious how these would have been assembled.

Can you post a scan or two of the negatives in raw form (how they appear to the naked eye) with some sizes of the plates?

[Saco River Auction]

Hi, all I know is the consignor is from the Burlington area of Vermont and bought these from an estate over 40 years ago. He does not remember the family name of the estate, but does remember they lived on Lake Champlain.

The Photos are included below and each one measures 5x7

[vthobby]

That's what I'm talking about, 1957-58 Hoops Topps Vending Machine find back in the 1980s, 1948 Bowman Hoops find early 2014, and now these......

I really need to start hitting the road, there are plenty more I'm sure.

Luckily I was part of 2 out of the 3 finds mentioned above!

peace, mike

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

That's what I'm talking about, 1957-58 Hoops Topps Vending Machine find back in the 1980s, 1948 Bowman Hoops find early 2014, and now these......



I really need to start hitting the road, there are plenty more I'm sure.



Luckily I was part of 2 out of the 3 finds mentioned above!



peace, mike

You forgot about the '88 Donruss find of ... '88.

[Saco River Auction]

Watch Video Here

[prewarsports]

You might want to have these examined to be sure they are not glass plate "copy negatives". The original negatives would most likely not have the Goodwin and Co. copyright on them (unless they are etched into the negatives you have or painted on) and the bottom corners appear to have stickers that are present in the image. It is impossible to tell without holding them in person, but my hunch is that these are not the "originals" but glass plates made after the fact from the developed photographs, probably about 1910-1920.

Awesome items either way, but a bit more research might help you guys when selling these so that they are described accurately.

Best of luck with the sale.

[oldjudge]

Rhys/Josh--I have a glass plate negative that I picked up from Terry Knouse years ago. It has the Goodwin copyright written in black ink on the negative. I believe that the photographers sent the negatives to Goodwin where the copyright and other info may have been written on. I'm pretty sure mine was used in the production process. Having said that, I have not seen the Saco ones in person and I don't know if they are first generation or not. Perhaps Troy could comment as to whether there is writing on the negatives. The writing on mine is obviously on the glass (and not in the negative). I wonder if the Saco ones are the same.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

You forgot about the '88 Donruss find of ... '88.

Good one Daryl,

Actually I did find some of those and oh boy let me tell you.........wallpaper baby! Ugh!

peace, mike

PS I was actually trying to forget that find so thanks for bringing that up!

[joshleland]

It might be a stretch to call these definitively used to make the cards
I have seen several of these glass negatives through the years of varying qualities
I remebember the first and largest group was in New England possibly at brimfield in the early 80s
I have this mental image of seeing them in the back of a vehicle
I passed on them but later saw them dispersed in the hobby
None of them ever had pics of the mounts which these do not as well which helps them
I was never convinced they were from the tobacco company although everyone else that owned them always did but the buyers did not respond with price assurity
They always sold for in the low hundreds as novelties rather than in the thousands of dollars which they should have
They could have been used by anyone to print the various media that uitlized these images throughout the years
They also look early 20th century rather than late 19th
I'd like to hear from knowledgable pure photo people like David Cycleback as to their opinions as the date of the negs themselves as my dating is more hunch than definitive but I fear their opinions will also be hunch or gut
Dating glass negs to any certainty is tough for me while vintage prints and non glass negs are a lot easier
In fact I don't recall seeing anything that early in glass but I'm open to being reminded
They are not first generation studio negs based on the various writings like Goodwin & Co. which would have to have the white paint right on the neg to be what we call "camera negs"
I'm not trying to throw water on the auction fire just taking a step back
They could have been used somewhere in the process but like the others I've seen I could never make that definitive jump with certainty
Would I buy or sell them as definitively part of the process, no
Would I buy or sell them as maybes
Maybe
Josh

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by joshleland

It might be a stretch to call these definitively used to make the cards

In fact I don't recall seeing anything that early in glass but I'm open to being reminded

Josh

Josh,
Not sure if you meant baseball or ANY glass plates but either way:

The wet plate negative was in use from the early 1850s until the late 1880s, before being almost completely replaced by the more convenient dry plate negative process.

Hope that helps a little.

peace, mike

[packs]

Thought this card might be of interest. Not sure why but it has the copyright written onto the proof itself. Could have been done later to deceive or maybe at production.

[drcy]

You can date glass negatives, 1800s versus 1900s, by examining the glass. The glass usually differs in thickness, cut and glass quality. So I think someone could examine the negatives and tell you if they're from the 1800s.

Duly note that they quit making glass negatives and photographic slides in 1920s-30s (replacing with plastic film), so all glass negatives are antique-- the question here is 'how antique.'

I've never been particularly fond of the Vermont find cabinet cards and displays, but they sell for good money even when clearly advertised as being from the early 1900s. I've never seen one of the Vermont find glass negatives, so have no opinion on them other than others have auctioned them as original.

In case anyone's interested, I wrote a brief article giving an overview of the various Old Judge proofs and displays-- here

[oldjudge]

I won several of the negatives in the Saco River Auction and I just wanted to take a moment to complement Troy and his guys for their great work. The care they put into shipping these fragile relics was amazing. They built boxes with special compartments for each negative, and then wrapped and double boxed everything.
In response to the prior questions about these being period, they are--I say this with 100% certainty. My friend Joe Gonsowski, who was at the auction, will discuss this in more depth, but let me just say that these negatives are about as historically significant an Old Judge item as you can get.
Thanks again Troy--a job well done!

[Exhibitman]

Outstanding civilized discussion and glad to hear they are original.