Women's baseball CdV

[GaryPassamonte]

I originally posted this on the October pick up thread, but it has been suggested I start a new thread.
This CdV appears to picture women players circa 1865-69. The player in the bottom row center is holding a bouquet and the player bottom row left seems to be wearing an earring. I have never seen a CdV picturing women players. This image would predate any women and baseball image by more than a decade. Any thoughts?

[clydepepper]

Gary - That is a remarkable pickup.

Any thoughts? Yeah, a few:


I believe the NL should never adopt the DH and women should not be encouraged to seek participation in Baseball.



I also believe that 'Half the fun of having feet is Red-Goose shoes.' tm

[swarmee]

Love the card; just got my first ever photo with an IRS stamp on the back, dating it to the 1960s. However, it was just a woman sitting in a chair. Yours is much cooler.

[barrysloate]

Gary- Are you sure they are all women? In most of the early images I've seen the women are wearing dresses. Knickers are unusual. But that's a pretty amazing image.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Gary- Are you sure they are all women? In most of the early images I've seen the women are wearing dresses. Knickers are unusual. But that's a pretty amazing image.

yeah, some of them look more 60/40

[Econteachert205]

So it looks to me as if the cdv was trimmed at the bottom, likely where the photographers info would have been. I take it there is nothing revealing about the back. Am interested in players back left and back right, they look young and boyish. Also that bat looks huge relative to the players. A curious and fascinating piece..

[rman444]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Gary- Are you sure they are all women? In most of the early images I've seen the women are wearing dresses. Knickers are unusual. But that's a pretty amazing image.

Agree with Barry on the women in dresses prior to the 1880's, but a fantastic image nonetheless!

[Jobu]

Can you please post a high res scan instead of a photo? I would like to get a better look. Thanks.

I also second the questions on how one dates something like this.

[GaryPassamonte]

Bryan- Unfortunately, this is the best I can do with a scan. I am deficient in this area!
I don't know if we can be sure if this image depicts women or boys. A player holding a bouquet is indeed strange. The pants are also very baggy, almost like pantaloons. The player's lower legs also appear not as muscular as a man's would be. Since there are no images of women and baseball prior to about 1880, it is not impossible that early women players wore trousers similar to those of their male counterparts. We do know that in the 1860s baseball was deemed too "rough" for women and became dormant until about 1880. Maybe the wearing of more "womenlike" clothing allowed for greater acceptance of the sport after 1880.

[GaryPassamonte]

Here is the reverse. Wilkes Barre Pa location. It is difficult to read from my scan, but the reverse says W Ogilvie successor to SS Hull.

[swarmee]

Gary; they probably didn't do color printing at this time, and the red and blue coloring was added outside of the printing process (many things from the Victorian era are labeled "hand-colored"; my guess is these dark colors were added later, and may be obscuring useful parts of the photograph. It looks like a bouquet because the "flowers" were painted in, but it may not be....?

Still love the piece, but it is a confusing one.

[Wite3]

Gary,

You might want to contact Joann Kline...she used to post here in the old days and if I recall, she had extensive collection and knowledge of early women players, teams, photos, etc. I don't have her email anymore but you can find her on facebook or she still might have her email linked here if you search for her. Just an idea...

Joshua

[GaryPassamonte]

John- The coloring may have been done in the 1860s or later. I still think the bouquet is the key. Why would someone add a bouquet to a photograph if the players weren't women? It just doesn't add up. As I said prior, we will probably never know with certainty the gender of these players. However, all factors considered, I believe there is a better chance these players are women than boys.
Joshua- Thanks. I will try to contact her.

After researching the history of women's clothing in the 1850s and 1860s, we can't rule out that the trousers may in fact be bloomers. There was a feminist movement at this time and the wearing of trousers or bloomers was done. Any woman "bold" enough to play baseball in the 1860s may have "bold" enough to wear trousers.