Bill Mastro denies widespread fraud in his auctions -- yesterday.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Shelly you were there at PSA when (according to legend) Bill Hughes graded it? Who else was there and what were the discussions at the time?

Yeah I am a bit confused too. I had never heard by anyone's account that Shelly was there. Yesterday I learned about character letters and today learned that there were a whole lot of people at PSA when the T206 Wagner was graded an 8.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Just think, if Hanky (Joe) Panky had handled the card it would have come back a "9".

[tbob]

Originally Posted by mightyq

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise.

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by tbob

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

Bill isn't biting the bullet for anyone. On the very day he was indicted in this case, his lawyer indicated he was cooperating with the feds. Bill Mastro is for one person: Bill Mastro. He's clearly pissed that he's receiving any grief for his crimes because, after all, this has been a tough time for him and his family.

[drcy]

I thought that in Catholicism, lying was considered a sin.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

Maybe it is pure coincidence, but I wonder if this is why Don Spence is retiring his sets and selling?

Mark

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

[mightyq]

I also want to say I do not think that all of mastro employees were doing criminal activity . I have friends at legendary that worked for mastro for years, they get the benefit of the doubt from me until I see what and if anything ever unfolds.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

What? A Bill Mastro thread without some information gleaned from Michael O'Keeffe? This forum is really starting to slip.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1482098

Quote from the article:

Prosecutors believe the scheme conducted by Mastro and his associates between 2002 and 2009 cost collectors between $400,000 and $1 million. Monico, who declined comment after the hearing, has said the scheme cost collectors between $30,000 and $70,000.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tbob

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

Are you not aware that two others were indicted?

[cincyredlegs]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

Here is the thread that talks about it on the CU Forum.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...eyword1=spence

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

Jeff Lichtman is either in possession of or has seen the bidder records many times as he has alluded to it over and over. He has also said hundreds if not thousands of bidders were shilled. How do we get to see bidder records to see if we are victims?

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

[nsaddict]

Very interesting Jeff, can you give us a hint without names? Let's say post number(s)

Tom, you got me...Bill and I made a killing on the Beanie Baby craze haha

[autograf]

So what's gonna happen to those people? That information should be released so we can all view it. Will that ever happen or will it be seals for some reason? I don't doubt that cons ignore shill their own items.

Richard....I'm thinking post 62.....

[calvindog]

Probably people who bid in Mastro's auctions should consider hiring a lawyer (not me) to contact the court and see if these records can be released so that a determination of whether they were defrauded can be made. Or else a lawsuit against Mastro should be brought and the records subpoenaed. I'm not getting involved of any of it and honestly all I would like to see is for the crooks to disgorge their ill-gotten gains.

PS definitely poster #63.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by calvindog

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

I am shocked such things go on.

[Fred]

I have a question -

Did the Mastro auctions bidding system allow them (Bill and his crew) access to who was bidding and how much they were bidding, including information regarding what the bidder top bids were?

I can remember a time where you had to either phone in a bid and no computers were used. I suppose that would give the auction house the ability to really hose over their bidders.

Perhaps I'm a bit naive and I always believed that most of the top auctions were always on the level.

The shill bidding bugs me but the one thing that I've been finally waiting to hear is what everybody seems to have known about for a long time - the trimmed Wagner.

Maybe Bill will have some time to reflect when he's in his cell and maybe he'll come to terms with what he did and own up to what he did.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Fred

I have a question -

Did the Mastro auctions bidding system allow them (Bill and his crew) access to who was bidding and how much they were bidding, including information regarding what the bidder top bids were?

Answer: YES

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by drcy

My idle observation is that some people on Net54 don't have or use common sense (wishful thinking?), and/or fear being sued themselves by posting their true thoughts and insights on a public chatboard.

That may be true for some posters, but I'm positive it's not true for others. It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you. Plus, you have only 5 years from the time to file a suit or you're out of luck.

This hobby is drenched with fraudsters, but I won't give up on collecting. Screw them for their awful behavior. I'll outlast them.

Bill

[drcy]

That the Wagner was rumored/alleged/accused of being trimmed was the about worst kept secret in the hobby for years. It ranked up there with 'ESPN chatboard talk Barry Bonds might have used PEDs.' It was openly talked about, even joked about, on this board and even the PSA board. Keith O. made snide remarks. To now say that this hobby bigwig or that hobby bigwig didn't know about these allegations is silly. That's why I posted my 'lack of common sense post.' If a 17 year old collector in small town Oklahoma heard stories the card was trimmed, it's hard to believe an industry insider was ignorant of the stories. Or, some might suggest, that they buyers didn't know.

The card was, at least for some, a commodity. Like hog bellies. If it brought a return, it brought a return.

PSA exists today as service for resellers and investors. That's what they are, that's how the describe themselves. They overtly advertise the financial benefits of getting your collectibles holdered by them. Average Joe eBay sellers on the CU board ponder aloud if it's worth their financial/resale investment to get such and such card graded-- or perhaps that issue is better to be graded by Beckett.

If you asked me what is the #1 thing I dislike about the art and collectibles industry, it's easy for me to answer: This money stuff. I'm no socialist, I understand collectibles have financial value, I've resold collectibles, if someone wants $10,000 for his baseball bat that's fine by me, if an auction house wants a 15% profit return in the next year I understand that. But turning the hobby into Money magazine, NYSE, investing clubs, is an entire turnoff. It's Donald Trump tacky. It's QVC. It's bad ESPN programming. There's a reason I don't own a television.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by drcy

There's a reason I don't own a television.

That is what makes you a socialist in my book!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bcornell

It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you.

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Deertick

That is what makes you a socialist in my book!

Just for the record, I watched a 1930s Laurel and Hardy comedy on my laptop last night.

My vote for best/favorite Laurel and Hardy short (sitcom length) is 1931's 'Chickens Come Home.' Hardy is a married big cty politician and businessman running for mayor, when his past, in the form of an old gold digging girlfriend, enters his office. Blackmail, high society chaos and even gunfire follows. Co-stars vintage comic greats James Finlayson (butler), Thelma Todd (Hardy's blonde wife) and Mae Bush (the brunette femme fatale-- below). Available for free on youtube.

[Iron Horse]

How do we know that this is not going on today?? We see it on ebay with bidders that have numerous bid retractions, and i am sure it is happening in other auctions as well.
Guess the big question is how do we assure that the consumer/bidder is protected in these auctions??
Should there be an independent council that monitors the big auctions?
Should the duration of bidding be shortened to 2-3 days max not 5 weeks?

Looking forward to other suggestions??
Maybe some auction houses can even suggest how do we make sure that our bids are not being shilled.

[HRBAKER]

How do we know that this is not going on today??

If you suspect it, stop participating.
Why would they stop if we don't.
Therein lies the problem.

[Iron Horse]

Hi Jeff,
Yes, i have for one stop bidding on items that are being sold by some sellers on ebay. It is easier to at least see the bidding trend or the bidders on ebay. However we have no clue in the auctions that are off ebay.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

Big +1

[wheitman]

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

[wheitman]

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich?

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by drcy

I thought that in Catholicism, lying was considered a sin.

A venial sin, but not a mortal sin... perhaps?

[ullmandds]

say my name!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Oxux1o2rQ

[shelly]

I would asume if you felt you where taken in anyway by Mastro. You could ask the DA if you are on the list of people that know about.. I would think that these are now open records since he has plead guilty.One other thing that
I have not read is did the Judge order restitution to the harmed partys.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich?

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

I'm sure Doug Allen is dry cleaning his proffer suit in an effort to unload on PSA in order to save himself. Just a hunch.

[mightyq]

With all this talk of trimming , does anyone else come to mind ? Anybody remember some of the hobbies bad boys.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

When you inhabit a board that is dominated by T206 conversation it's like not knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by DaVinci.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mightyq

With all this talk of trimming , does anyone else come to mind ? Anybody remember some of the hobbies bad boys.

Plenty of people come to mind.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

When you inhabit a board that is dominated by T206 conversation it's like not knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by DaVinci.

Thank you Dan well said. Like having John Glenn chime in via an Aerospace chat board to be followed by "excuse me who are you, and what's your deal anyway?".....

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

When you inhabit a board that is dominated by T206 conversation it's like not knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by DaVinci.

oh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

I am sure David is far from the only one, even in this community.

[Exhibitman]

Well, not knowing who Bill H. is might not be so surprising except that his name is right next to his post...

Pete: "Heisenberg."

[the 'stache]

Bill, as a new Monster chaser myself, it is an honor to have you on the forum.

I was happy to find your book available on Ebay. It's ordered, so soon I'll be able to learn from your extensive knowledge.

Welcome aboard!

Bill

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by mightyq

figured i would throw my story out there,

I bid on a ton of mastro auctions nonsports cards over the years, probably from 2002-08 going into legendary. anyway i forget the auction date, but i went to bed with ceiling bids on 7 lots, each was well off my ceiling and i was the winner on most. next day comes and i find out i won all 7 lots and the bidding stopped within 1 bid of each auction that would have out bid me. figure i paid thousands more that day for putting the ceiling bids in. never did that again. matter of fact that was the start of the end for me. although i had no proof i didnt need it to know that to have all 7 lots reach my ceiling was anything but shill bidding. now i dont know for sure, but i would guess that bill himself didnt do this all night long. I would assume some very in the know employees did lots if not all the dirty work, and when bill takes the stand to throw a few under the bus real soon we will get an idea as to how and who done this. pretty sure bill will be singing away when the time comes. If i were a part of bills all star team of the mastro years i would be getting ready to have my life ruined by him and ready for my family to get embarassed when articles are written for weeks to come. we will never know who what and the monetary value of all the shilling, but rest assured the govt. isnt spending all this money and man power to put this together just to catch bill. could you imagine the puppets that did the dirty work, full well knowing their guilty. they wake up each morning knowing its one day closer to their own demise.

GREAT POST, thanks

[Cardboard Junkie]

Oh Jeeze! Perhaps I should be banned for not knowing who wheitman is.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by wheitman

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

thanks for posting here, but this part I don't think ted Z would agree with...

[oldjudge]

David---just one more wheitman on the board.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

Oh Jeeze! Perhaps I should be banned for not knowing who wheitman is.

No, but maybe for not doing the simplest bit of research on him. At the time you asked him who he was he had a grand total of 6 posts. His second post mentions that he wrote a book called The Monster in 1980, his third post mentions compiling lists in 1979. With this information you might have some clue that you are talking with someone who has been around the hobby for a while and might have some idea of what he was talking about.

Or then again you could have just reread Shelly's original post about being there with Bill Heitman and figured that it might be someone related to wheitman.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

David---just one more wheitman on the board.

ha ha ha ha......excelllent!!!!! Very VERY very Funny!!!! Great!