Provenance of a Vintage Card - Share another Story

[frankbmd]

A T206 card caught my eye recently and began to tell me its story. I dug a little deeper and asked a few questions. The ownership thread of this card, I’m convinced, has been established. Provenance was the motivation for my purchase of the Rube Waddell portrait version of his T206 card. The card’s back has three features that are the key to establishing the history of this card:

A stamp with the name Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Gordon Soutter.

Nelson Tisdel stamps have been seen on more than a few T206 cards. Nelson was born around the turn of the century growing up in Missouri and was a young teenager when the T206 cards were produced. Other examples of Tisdel stamped T206 cards exist and some of them have been signed by him as well. I was unable to determine whether he was smoking in 1910 or whether he got the cards from his father, probably the latter as he was quite bright.

In 1920 he is pictured on the Phi Beta Kappa page of the University of Missouri yearbook (see below), where he received an AB degree. In 1922 he earned a MBA from Harvard and has a thesis recorded on “Capitalization” in the Harvard archives. In 1925 he was married and in 1933 he fathered a son Donald in 1933.

Donald Tisdel was a boyhood friend of Gordon Soutter and before 1945 Donald had received some of his father Nelson’s T206 cards including the Waddell card. A trade was made between the boys and the new owner thought it appropriate to sign the card as well to document the transfer of ownership. This trade was completed before Waddell’s election to the Hall of Fame in 1946, a good deal for Gordon one would think.

Donald passed away in 1981, but Gordon is still living with his wife, who recently listed the card on Ebay. I was curious to know if the seller was or knew Gordon Soutter. Mrs. Soutter was kind enough to confirm that Gordon was her husband and he confirmed the trading of cards with Donald.

Some research on Nelson Tisdel was hijacked from Tim Fritz on this board from a prior post on back stamps about a year ago. I was able to confirm the sites he found, basically the yearbook and wedding date. I was able to confirm Donald birth date from an obituary, and Nelson’s dissertation info from the Harvard Archives. Gordon and his wife confirmed the trade and the fact that he was the owner of the card from 1945 until today. Gordon’s Facebook page is consistent both in terms of his age and location, which is the same town from which they sent me the card, Bountiful, Utah.

I feel confident with this information and the fact that I am the first person to actually purchase this 100 + year old card, apart from the original cigarette purchase by young Nelson or his father. Like Mr. Fritz this card will occupy a special place in my collection with this provenance. What is the card worth (recent thread)? I have no idea, Leon, as I bought it with my heart and not my brain. Hopefully none of our experts will question the authenticity of the signatures. I only regret that I will not be able to keep it for 67 years like the prior owner, unless I find the Fountain of Youth. Perhaps someone will be able to purchase it in the future from one of my sons, who currently could care less about my collection.

A poor copy of the Tisdel Yearbook photo (Tisdel, upper right) is included as well as the text of Tim’s original post.

Other stories of provenance of vintage items hopefully will keep this thread alive. I think it would be worthwhile and interesting. Each card has its own story, if only more of them would talk.

Text for the 1920 U of Missouri Yearbook Page Photo:

SAVITAR
PHI BETA KAPPA
FOUNDED WILLIAM AND MARY COLLEGE DECEMBER 8, 1776
ALPHA OF MISSOURI CHAPTER FOUNDED 1901
FREDERICK M TISUEL PRESIDENT - ???? SECRETARY - GEORGE LEFEVRE VICE-PRESIDENT
CORWIN D EDWARDS (upper left), NELSON C TISDEL (upper right), ADA E BRAINARD (center), DWIGHT DONAN (lower left), BEN S ELY (lower right)

Sorry for the poor image

Fritz: original Tisdel post

I also have a T206 (Bender with trees) that has the Nelson Tisdel stamp on the back. Mine also has his sig on the back border and had been glued, but still had the backing on it. Got that off and was at first disappointed to find the stamp, but then googled the name.

Some info I found was someone with the same name came to the US with his family in the early 1900s (1906/7? - I've lost the geneaology web site link) and grew up in Missouri. Graduated from the University of Missouri in 1920 and married in 1925. Got most of that from a few google searches. There's a site that has his 1920 yearbook with class picture.

It's now my favorite T206 card. I picture a kid just coming to the US, learning about baseball and collecting T206 cards. I've seen others on ebay for sale over the years. I thought it was kinda fun to put a story together to go with the stamp. Might not be the same kid, but I'd rather not ruin my mind's picture of the story.

[soxinseven]

Great story! Congrats on a beautiful card with a great deal of provenance....

[CW]

Nice card with a GREAT story behind it! I can see why it's now your favorite T206. The true collector value of that card transcends the monetary value. I'm sure many of us have wondered about the path a certain card may have taken on its way to our collection, but it's rare that we ever learn the story. It's very cool to see that at least one collector was able to figure it all out.

[mrvster]

The Great Gatsby!!

I always wanted one.....and now i have it.....

[T3s]

Hi Frank,

Thanks very much for your post. Really a pleasure to read and certainly interesting. Your efforts were worth it, right?

As another example, several months ago I was lucky enough to have a beautiful T3 Turkey Red find (search older posts). A few of the cards have writing on the back. A handful note "Reid Pleasant Drug" across the top. My assumption is that was a local drug store - several ways the cards could be attached to the store.

Best of all, one of the cards carries the signature of "Elias Beasley". Mr. Beasley was the original collector as a very young man. I purchased the cards from Mr. Beasley's grandson. During our negotiations for the cards, we talked a fair amount about the family and the story about how the cards were kept, owned, etc. I was very interested and wanted to find a way to preserve the collection (before some headed out to all corners of the earth) and document the provenance.

I went online to Walmart.com (not a plug) and created a beautiful photo book. Full color, full-sized scans of every card with brief commentary on each page, additional pictures and information on the set itself and it's provenance. Bound in black leather, about 50 pages, back and front on glossy paper. My point being that it is very classy looking and just as important, it was cheap! Provenance and original collection preserved.

I gave the seller two copies, one for each of his sons, and kept one for myself.

If anyone comes across a find of any size, I think it would be cool (and important) to document it as well as possible. Years from now, there will be collectors even more fanatic than we are who be thrilled to find this information.

Happy Collecting,
Craig Diamond

[frankbmd]

Thanks Craig, other stories like yours is what I was hoping to see. I asked my seller if they had more Tisdel cards, but the only response I got was "We only sell on Ebay, keep watching our auctions." At least I tried.

Thanks for your album idea.

[T206Collector]

I recently soaked a T206 card to remove a scrapbook scrap, and voila.... Nelson Tisdel's stamp was hiding underneath. Card was sold, but still think it was a neat discovery.

[rp12367]

Originally Posted by T3s

Hi Frank,

Thanks very much for your post. Really a pleasure to read and certainly interesting. Your efforts were worth it, right?

As another example, several months ago I was lucky enough to have a beautiful T3 Turkey Red find (search older posts). A few of the cards have writing on the back. A handful note "Reid Pleasant Drug" across the top. My assumption is that was a local drug store - several ways the cards could be attached to the store.

Best of all, one of the cards carries the signature of "Elias Beasley". Mr. Beasley was the original collector as a very young man. I purchased the cards from Mr. Beasley's grandson. During our negotiations for the cards, we talked a fair amount about the family and the story about how the cards were kept, owned, etc. I was very interested and wanted to find a way to preserve the collection (before some headed out to all corners of the earth) and document the provenance.

I went online to Walmart.com (not a plug) and created a beautiful photo book. Full color, full-sized scans of every card with brief commentary on each page, additional pictures and information on the set itself and it's provenance. Bound in black leather, about 50 pages, back and front on glossy paper. My point being that it is very classy looking and just as important, it was cheap! Provenance and original collection preserved.

I gave the seller two copies, one for each of his sons, and kept one for myself.

If anyone comes across a find of any size, I think it would be cool (and important) to document it as well as possible. Years from now, there will be collectors even more fanatic than we are who be thrilled to find this information.

Happy Collecting,
Craig Diamond

Craig, I had a T206 with just Elias on it which makes sense now As soon as I saw the hand writting I knew it was the same. T206's are alot smaller, guess he didnt want to mess up the back to much and squeezed it in, I have since sold the card, but I may still have a scan, I will look and if I do i will post it for you.... Ralph

[ethicsprof]

great story!!!
I have wondered for some time about Elias written on the back of
one of my T206s and am pleased to know the story now, thanks to you.
Like Ralph, mine is just the Elias but is a definite match for the one you provide.
all the best,

barry

[edjs]

Originally Posted by T3s

Best of all, one of the cards carries the signature of "Elias Beasley". Mr. Beasley was the original collector as a very young man. I purchased the cards from Mr. Beasley's grandson. During our negotiations for the cards, we talked a fair amount about the family and the story about how the cards were kept, owned, etc. I was very interested and wanted to find a way to preserve the collection (before some headed out to all corners of the earth) and document the provenance.

I just got this card, and much to my surprise found "Elias" on the back. Is this the same guy, Craig?

[Runscott]

Here's a Plank story that I really enjoyed:

Lionel Carter's T206 Plank

[keating3620]

i have diamond stars that my dad collected in 1935 when he was 12. One day my uncle was mad at my dad and took a hole punch to his Luke Appling card. In my world this increased the value since every time I see the holes it makes me laugh.

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

A stamp with the name Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Gordon Soutter.

A trade was made between the boys and the new owner thought it appropriate to sign the card as well to document the transfer of ownership.

Frank,

I'm curious. Will you now sign the Waddell card as well to document the transfer of ownership?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

Frank,

I'm curious. Will you now sign the Waddell card as well to document the transfer of ownership?

If requested by the next owner, I would happily comply. Rest assured that I will ask.

If this was a common practice, I imagine some of these little cards would be quite crowded with sigs.

[philliesphan]

is owning a card that was once owned by Burdick, who sold the card to Sir Edward Wharton Tigar (in the 1940s)...and a few decades later, it is now in my humble collection

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

If requested by the next owner, I would happily comply. Rest assured that I will ask.

I would think you would want to sign the back to document the transfer of ownership from Gordon Soutter to you.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

I would think you would want to sign the back to document the transfer of ownership from Gordon Soutter to you.

+1

Totally appropriate.

[Exhibitman]

This card has a nice history: Con Dempsey [PCL/MLB player] got it as a kid in SF, gave it to collector Dave Eskenazi. From Dave it went to Mark Macrae, and I got it from Mark at a National.

[paul]

Here's my Zeenut Paddy Driscoll. It has what I believe is Buck Barker's writing on the back, documenting his baseball and football careers. Then, at the bottom there is a note that Dick Dobbins acquired the card in 1973 and apparently traded or sold it to someone named Hauser in 1978. At least, that's what I guess the note means.

[ScottFandango]

nice addition to your growing collection...

have your boys become more interested in your collection since you started this thread a year or so ago?

have they ever been to a card show with you?

[Batjac1]

"I was unable to determine whether he was smoking in 1910 or whether he got the cards from his father, probably the latter as he was quite bright."

While it wasn't the smartest thing to do when I started smoking, I sure was cool when I was 15, and some folks still consider me quite bright...

and no not my mama, and certainly not my wife...

[frankbmd]

My fellow board members,

Recently my Tisdel hoard of three was reduced to two after my benevolent trade of one my Tisdel stamps with another board member. A hoard of two just didn't seem right though and I have added the requisite third example to make my hoard, a certified hoard, according to the Directors Guild, which is actually just a hoard of directors looking for guidance.

The scan below once again demonstrates the vertical placement of the Tisdel stamp as seen in other posts in the thread. This time there is no accompanying Tisdel autograph though. Please note as well the soft black slab holder, given as a freebie in Chicago last year, which performs the following functions.

1. It obscures any frosting on the slab margins.

2. It makes the slab so thick that they become more difficult to store.

3. It allows you to throw your cards against the wall without risk of injury to the card, the slab or the wall.

4. If using your slab as a coaster, it will not slide off a table that is not level.

Is there anyone out there using these? Just wonderin'

[2dueces]

I have 20 F.F. Baker stamped T206's. I've told the history of the Baker stamp on here a few times. Unfortunately I cannot find it in search and am at work at the moment. I'll try to recall from memory. The family owned a grocery store at 1318 Mosby St. Richmond Va from the early 1900's. Frank was the son and was born circa 1900 (exact yr eludes me). Most of the T206's are Piedmont backs but I have 1 Old Mill and another collector has seen a Baker with an AB back. My imagination has me thinking young Frank hung around the grocery store grabbing cards from customers but likely a family member smoked Piedmont. I have a card with a Baker back and another stamp on it. Maybe it was traded to a buddy and he stamped it?

[4815162342]

Frank, I placed my PSA "graded" Babe Ruth Cracker Jack fantasy card (they were given out at the luncheon) in that "Otter Box for Slabs" in order to make the trip home but then never used it again. I doubt that many of those have been sold.

[Exhibitman]

I've shown this in response to some other threads but seems to belong here too. This E80 was once the possession of Jefferson Burdick:

[DHogan]

Great stories. It's cool to see some differnet history behind the cards.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

I love this story and the magic of the past, both in the history of the player on the cardboard but also the original owner. Very cool that he stamped his cards unknowingly allowing us to peek back in time at his life.

Originally Posted by frankbmd

A T206 card caught my eye recently and began to tell me its story. I dug a little deeper and asked a few questions. The ownership thread of this card, I’m convinced, has been established. Provenance was the motivation for my purchase of the Rube Waddell portrait version of his T206 card. The card’s back has three features that are the key to establishing the history of this card:

A stamp with the name Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Nelson Tisdel
A signature of Gordon Soutter.

Nelson Tisdel stamps have been seen on more than a few T206 cards. Nelson was born around the turn of the century growing up in Missouri and was a young teenager when the T206 cards were produced. Other examples of Tisdel stamped T206 cards exist and some of them have been signed by him as well. I was unable to determine whether he was smoking in 1910 or whether he got the cards from his father, probably the latter as he was quite bright.

In 1920 he is pictured on the Phi Beta Kappa page of the University of Missouri yearbook (see below), where he received an AB degree. In 1922 he earned a MBA from Harvard and has a thesis recorded on “Capitalization” in the Harvard archives. In 1925 he was married and in 1933 he fathered a son Donald in 1933.

Donald Tisdel was a boyhood friend of Gordon Soutter and before 1945 Donald had received some of his father Nelson’s T206 cards including the Waddell card. A trade was made between the boys and the new owner thought it appropriate to sign the card as well to document the transfer of ownership. This trade was completed before Waddell’s election to the Hall of Fame in 1946, a good deal for Gordon one would think.

Donald passed away in 1981, but Gordon is still living with his wife, who recently listed the card on Ebay. I was curious to know if the seller was or knew Gordon Soutter. Mrs. Soutter was kind enough to confirm that Gordon was her husband and he confirmed the trading of cards with Donald.

Some research on Nelson Tisdel was hijacked from Tim Fritz on this board from a prior post on back stamps about a year ago. I was able to confirm the sites he found, basically the yearbook and wedding date. I was able to confirm Donald birth date from an obituary, and Nelson’s dissertation info from the Harvard Archives. Gordon and his wife confirmed the trade and the fact that he was the owner of the card from 1945 until today. Gordon’s Facebook page is consistent both in terms of his age and location, which is the same town from which they sent me the card, Bountiful, Utah.

I feel confident with this information and the fact that I am the first person to actually purchase this 100 + year old card, apart from the original cigarette purchase by young Nelson or his father. Like Mr. Fritz this card will occupy a special place in my collection with this provenance. What is the card worth (recent thread)? I have no idea, Leon, as I bought it with my heart and not my brain. Hopefully none of our experts will question the authenticity of the signatures. I only regret that I will not be able to keep it for 67 years like the prior owner, unless I find the Fountain of Youth. Perhaps someone will be able to purchase it in the future from one of my sons, who currently could care less about my collection.

A poor copy of the Tisdel Yearbook photo (Tisdel, upper right) is included as well as the text of Tim’s original post.

Other stories of provenance of vintage items hopefully will keep this thread alive. I think it would be worthwhile and interesting. Each card has its own story, if only more of them would talk.

Text for the 1920 U of Missouri Yearbook Page Photo:

SAVITAR
PHI BETA KAPPA
FOUNDED WILLIAM AND MARY COLLEGE DECEMBER 8, 1776
ALPHA OF MISSOURI CHAPTER FOUNDED 1901
FREDERICK M TISUEL PRESIDENT - ???? SECRETARY - GEORGE LEFEVRE VICE-PRESIDENT
CORWIN D EDWARDS (upper left), NELSON C TISDEL (upper right), ADA E BRAINARD (center), DWIGHT DONAN (lower left), BEN S ELY (lower right)

Sorry for the poor image

Fritz: original Tisdel post

I also have a T206 (Bender with trees) that has the Nelson Tisdel stamp on the back. Mine also has his sig on the back border and had been glued, but still had the backing on it. Got that off and was at first disappointed to find the stamp, but then googled the name.

Some info I found was someone with the same name came to the US with his family in the early 1900s (1906/7? - I've lost the geneaology web site link) and grew up in Missouri. Graduated from the University of Missouri in 1920 and married in 1925. Got most of that from a few google searches. There's a site that has his 1920 yearbook with class picture.

It's now my favorite T206 card. I picture a kid just coming to the US, learning about baseball and collecting T206 cards. I've seen others on ebay for sale over the years. I thought it was kinda fun to put a story together to go with the stamp. Might not be the same kid, but I'd rather not ruin my mind's picture of the story.