T207....indeed a strange set....let' talk about it ?

[tedzan]

I started my T207 set in the late 1980's and completed it by the mid-1990's. In the late 1990's I sold it to one of our best liked Net54 guys.
This set has always perplexed me, in that none of BB "biggies" of that era (except Johnson & Speaker) were featured in it. But, there was a
lot of new name players that were not in the T206 or T205 sets. Guys like Lowdermilk and "Red" Hoff. For reasons like these, I have always
thought that this set was not printed by American Litho. In fact there is another 1912 set that closely resembles (front & back) the T207 set,
and that is the Imperial Tobacco (C46) set issued in Canada. I'd say that these two sets were produced by the same (unknown) printing firm.

My favorite card in this set is Chester "Red" Hoff. A southpaw pitcher, Chet started with the Highlanders in 1911....and the very first batter he
faced was Ty Cobb....Chet struck out Cobb on 3 pitches. When I sold my set, I kept Hoff, since he was still living at the grand old age of 107.

So, let's hear of your experiences collecting T207's....and, by all means show us some of your cards ?







TED Z

[jcmtiger]

I don't want to plug up the board, here are my Tigers. I have all the Detroit Players, here are a few. i do like those boxes.

Joe

[Abravefan11]

I know little about this set but here's my favorite T207 that I own.



At the time that Hank was included in this set, like many others, he wasn't a big name in the professional game. The inclusion and exclusion of many players in this set is perplexing. Ted I think you may be onto something with your theory that this set was produced by someone other than ALC.

[frohme]

I was about to post on T207 for a couple of reasons, both with news, and further questions.

First off, though, the quest is finally at an end - T207 is complete.

With help, generosity, and support from so many others (as I've said several times before) and collaboration with other board member(s) who are oh sooooo close as well, the set is finally complete. Lots of room for improvement, and the Lewis no emblem is still not included, but those of you that have one - congrats!

Donnelly just arrived from the REA lot - many, many thanks Ron.



Some credits:

Rob D - I haven't forgotten what I owe you for your generosity.
Robert A, Bill T, Bob, et. al - thanks for the continued encouragement.
Ron R - Thanks for the help on the final push and all the discussion in between.
Tim N and Bob M - thanks for the VCBC articles which helped show just how dark and torturous a path it is/was.

As for the process - my first card was Miller (Pitt) from a David Festberg auction somewhere around 1991. I only got the bug for the set in 2006 after finding this site and reading up on the challenge. Being a Pirates collector, seeing a Donlin on eBay, and reading tbob's comments about it being one of the hardest cards - in his opinion - lit the fuse. The rest is, well, history.

If there's anything I'd say looking back, it would be that there have been a lot more quality cards come out over the last 18 months than in the prior 3 years. Still, finding any card in EX or better in this set can be a real bear. Some are still harder (much) than others.

--
Mike

[ethicsprof]

congrats,Mike!!
a great conquest.

Ted, i have 2 recruit little cigar packs in order to represent the 2 different factories. i only have one card, the Wolverton, placed between the 2 packs,
framed.

They've never drawn me like the 206s in part because they lack the lithographic aesthetics of the 206s. They do seem to exhibit an oddity akin to the C46s as you suggest. Worth investigating further methinks.

great work.

best,
barry

[Kawika]

Glory Hallelujah! That ImageEvent layout of T207s would make a grown man weep.
Well done, Mike!


My grandfather was Edward McDonald although at the time of this card he hadn't yet set foot in America, but was rather in the Irish Guard chasing the Mad Mullah across Palestine. He never mentioned any baseball playing.

[teetwoohsix]

Just wanted to say congrats Mike !!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[marcdelpercio]

I have always found the theory very interesting that the Anonymous Factory 3 cards were a Coupon release. This would seem reasonable as it was a Louisiana factory. Perhaps the breakup of the ATC caused some legal situation which prevented the Coupon brand name on the back of some of these cards. This could also be a factor in the discussion of whether Coupon Type 1's should be considered as a T206 brand while the Type 2's and 3's (all three Louisiana Factory 3 releases...same as T207 Anonymous) released a few years later are clearly separate issues with unquestionably distinct designs.

[caramelcard]

Marc,

Good points.

Red Cross could've been a possibility for the anonymous backs.

Only a few exist. Few enough to where they could've been part of a test sheet. I can't think of another fairly large issue where one back is so amazingly scarce. Not sure why they would've have followed through with more.

Rob

[Leon]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

I can't think of another fairly large issue where one back is so amazingly scarce.
Rob

I don't know what "large" is considered but I can probably think of a at least one and maybe more, E222- AWA back .....

[frohme]

Thanks, Bill - you know your set was/is an inspiration. I've toyed with the idea - like you did - of a master set. I think that's one of the lines in the sand beyond which one is certifiable. I'll stick to my anonymous recruits - below.

Ted - many thanks as well - I plan to enjoy it as long as possible, and fill out the rough edges as wherever it makes sense. In keeping with your request, how about some Recruit-class anonymous-backed cards.

Thanks to board members for quite a few of these over the last 4 years.







Anyone have a Speaker they'd like to part with?

If you have images of anon-3 backs (Recruit) - show 'em.

[Bridwell]

T207's seem to have a laminate 'glaze' over the front of the card. It doesn't hold up very well, being prone to crazing and cracking. Handling T206's, it seems like T206's have more 'give' to them. A T207 is more likely to wrinkle, and the corners/edges more likely to chip, IMO. Thus EX or better examples are scarce.

Marc, the comparison to T213-2 is interesting because they seem to have the same type of 'glaze' on the fronts.

T207's are also somewhat of a 'ugly stepchild' to T206's. After millions of colorful T206's and E cards were in the hands of the public, then these darker T207's were released. I suspect they were not well received at the time. I've grown to love them, though.

Ron R

[Drew]

Hi Everybody
Congratulations Mike on completing your T 207 set. I started my set in
2001 and finished in 2004. It was a bear of a journey but enjoyable. I got lucky
at the Fort Washington show in September of 2002 when I came across a
dealer who had just purchased a near set of the brown backgrounds.
When I saw the four stacks of cards he had I became very excited and nervous.
Well I spent all of the cash I had on me. Forty-one cards at one show. He had many of the
tough cards like Donlin,Downey,Butcher,Rasmussen,Tyler,Ragan,Gregg, Blanding, etc. He had the
Ward Miller but I was broke. I made arrangements to send him a check
for the Miller. The forty-one cards brought my total to 173 cards.
I stll needed the Lewis,Saier,Lowdermilk,Speaker,Weaver,Thomas,Bauma n,White,
Phelan, plus others toughies and Livingston C,which was the last card I got from Dan M to finish the
set.
While bidding for 207's on ebay I noticed a familar name who would always be
a regular bidder Bob M.
TBob was the guy who helped me the most,sharing his knowledge of the set
with me, anwering all my questions and going head to head with me on ebay
battling for cards. We partnered along with Dan M to win a three card auction in
one of Lew Lipset auctions. I got the Lewis with emblem card i dont remember what
the other two cards were now.
I am now in the process of doing a bit of upgrading to my set.
drew

[tbob]

Hi Drew, long time no hear Glad to know you are doing well and you don't hold it against it me that we had some spirited bidding wars. Your story about finding a dealer with all those T207s reminds me of what happened to me back in the early 90's at a National when I was putting together a T207 set, I asked a dealer if he had any T207s because none were displayed on his table and he pulled out two small boxes which contained almost the entire set wrapped in tissue paper. The cards were all EX to EXMT. My heart stopped and I bought a ton of them. Had I known about the wonders of the ATM back then, I would have bought them all. In the 15 years since then I have never had anything like this happen even remotely close at a National or show.
tbob

[timn1]

Hi Ron,

I see what you mean: holding back that many stars from the initial offerings of a set would be pretty unusual-- but not inconceivable.

However, in terms of raw numbers, I don't see why they couldn't have come up with at least 50 more MLB players, possibly 100 more.

If I am right that the scarcer Recruits and -- clearly --the players found with Broadleaf backs were issued in series of 50 at a later date than the first 100, I can imagine that one or possibly two more series of 50 were envisioned for the following season.

200 players/16 ML teams is 12.5 players per team. Given how many marginal players are among the 200, I can certainly see 6 more players per team being issued, which would make another 100. We could even go through 1912-13 rosters and come up with a likely list of possibilities.

Re Mitchell: not sure why you feel that the two Mitchell cards picture the same player. One is in a Cleveland uni, one in a Cincy uni. Even if they screwed up the writeups, it still seems like two different players, no?

Tim

[timn1]

Just playing around, I decided to see how difficult it would be to generate 100 more players for the phantom "T207 extension set." Pretty easy, actually! Based on the 1912 rosters, all these guys played regularly or semi-regularly (100 IP or 150+ AB), yet are not in T207. They WOULD have been in the next group if the ATC had not been broken up -- A lot of big names in there, even more than I thought--

Athletics
Frank Baker
Boardwalk Brown
Eddie Collins
Jack Coombs
Ben Egan
Byron Houck
Harl Maggert
Stuffy McInnis
Eddie Plank

Braves/Doves/Nationals/whatever
Buster Brown
Vin Campbell
Walt Dickson
Otto Hess
George Jackson
Bill Rariden

Browns
Mack Allison
George Baumgardner
Elmer Brown
Pete Compton
Frank LaPorte
Jack Powell
Del Pratt
Burt Shotton
Gus Williams

Cardinals
Jack Bliss
Rube Geyer
Arnold Hauser
Miller Huggins
Lee Magee
Mike Mowrey
Slim Sallee

Cubs
Jimmy Archer
Mordecai Brown
Larry Cheney
Johnny Evers
Solly Hofman
Jimmy Lavender
Lew Richie
Jimmy Sheckard
Heinie Zimmerman

Dodgers/Superbas
Frank Allen
George Cutshaw
Bob Fisher
John Hummel
Herbie Moran
Red Smith
Earl Yingling

Giants
Red Ames
Fred Merkle
Chief Meyers
Red Murray
Tillie Shafer
Jeff Tesreau

Indians/Naps
Ray Chapman
Art Griggs
Joe Jackson
Nap Lajoie
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinpaugh
Bill Steen

Phillies
Pete Alexander
Gavvy Cravath
Mickey Doolan
Bill Killifer
Hans Lobert
Fred Luderus
Sherry Magee
Erskine Mayer
Eppa Rixey
Tom Seaton

Pirates
Babe Adams
Art Butler
George Gibson
Claude Hendrix
Hans Wagner

Red Sox
Hugh Bedient
Hick Cady
Ray Collins
Jake Stahl

Reds
Johnny Bates
Rube Benton
Dick Egan
Jimmy Esmond
Dick Hoblitzell
Bert Humphries
Bobby Keefe
George Suggs

Senators
Carl Cashion
Eddie Foster
Chick Gandil
Bob Groom
Tom Hughes
Danny Moeller
Howie Shanks
Rip Williams

Tigers
Donie Bush
Ty Cobb
Sam Crawford
Jean Dubuc
Davy Jones
Joe Lake
Baldy Louden
Ossie Vitt
Ed Willett

White Sox
Wally Mattick
Ed Walsh

Yankees/Highlanders
Ray Caldwell
Hal Chase
Birdie Cree
Russ Ford
Earl Gardner
Roy Hartzell
Jack Martin
George McConnell
Hack Simmons
Dutch Sterrett
Jeff Sweeney
Guy Zinn

[sox1903wschamp]

Nice job on the list Tim. I see only 4 additional Red Sox on your list because that is one team that was well represented in the original set with most of the team already included. What is interesting is that the Red Sox are not well represented in T-206 (only 10 I think, maybe less with a couple of multi poses on Wagner and Stahl). Sure would have been nice to see an extension of the T-207 with more stars.

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks for the info Tim. I still consider your articles the "bible" of this set and I refer to them constantly. It is easy to imagine additional series scheduled to be released as with the T206 set. In that set there are obviously certain players/series that appear only with certain backs. So I imagine with the T207 set, there may have been other brand backs that were originally on board with the set and scheduled to release over the next several months. It is inexplicable to me, for example, that there are no Piedmont T207's as that brand was the flagship of the T206 and T205 sets. Perhaps that series was scheduled to release but was aborted due to the ATC breakup or other reasons. Or perhaps Piedmonts are the Anonymous Factory 25.

One thing that suggests AGAINST a future series with a lot of stars and other big name players is that the later Broadleaf/Cycle class series that WAS released and comprises a full 1/4 of the set, contains a grand total of zero Hall of Famers or major stars. Logically it doesn't seem likely to me that an even LATER series than that would suddenly be overflowing with all of the big name players which were omitted in the previous series.