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[travrosty]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The card trimmed at the top edge is very disturbing to me in that it is so obvious. With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I dont know how. Isn't trimming something that should be obvious to psa, if not, how many bajillions have cards have slipped by if they can't catch these alterations?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I think the last 10 years have shown us that there are many collectors who care far far less whether a card has been altered than what number is on the flip.

This is also true.

[ullmandds]

bajillions...and bajillions!!! maybe even a google?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

With this and some of the other PSA doctored cards that have been posted on this forum, how can anyone still take PSA seriously?

I think the last 10 years have shown us that there are many collectors who care far far less whether a card has been altered than what number is on the flip.

Agreed and it's one of the most perplexing behavior patterns I've witnessed firsthand in my lifetime. I've seen a lot of similarity between people of this ilk and battered women who refuse to leave their husbands or die hard fans of professional wrestling who strenuously deny that the performance is staged.

[botn]

I do not feel the Gehrig in question is trimmed, other than possibly the upper right which was filed down due to the excess paper. I feel what we are seeing is simply from someone using too much force to press down the lifted paper. I would have to see it in person to know for sure but that is my impression. Grading companies should catch alterations that are obvious but shouldn't we be more pissed off at the people altering the cards? I mean it is a ton of fun to beat up on PSA but how about the FBI taking a look at some of the obvious card restoration that goes on? It is one thing to get a card bumped but another to change it's appearance in order to get it bumped.

I have said it for years on this board. All cards are at risk of being altered if in so doing their value increases enough to justify the time involved. Lessor condition high dollar cards are as susceptible to altering as the high grade material.

[T206Collector]

We had a poll on here a few years ago. Most of Net54 did not consider soaking a T206 to remove glue/gunk, or using an art eraser to erase pencil marks, was an impermissible alteration. I have done both, and SGC has graded both. My experience has been that if SGC notices the markings, they deduct for it; if they don't, they don't.

What crossed the line to impermissible for most of this board was anything that altered the cardboard itself to improve its condition, including the usual suspects of trimming, and pressing creases.

The stuff that hurts your head as a collector just trying to do the right thing is the soaking to remove glue and then drying the card by pressing it, which is permissible, but that incidentally flattens a wrinkle or a crease. We must have had a 10-page debate on here about the morals of that!

[E93]

And many people are only suspicious of doctoring on high grade cards. The doctors will work wherever they can make money.
JimB

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by botn

I do not feel the Gehrig in question is trimmed, other than possibly the upper right which was filed down due to the excess paper. I feel what we are seeing is simply from someone using too much force to press down the lifted paper. I would have to see it in person to know for sure but that is my impression. Grading companies should catch alterations that are obvious but shouldn't we be more pissed off at the people altering the cards? I mean it is a ton of fun to beat up on PSA but how about the FBI taking a look at some of the obvious card restoration that goes on? It is one thing to get a card bumped but another to change it's appearance in order to get it bumped.

I have said it for years on this board. All cards are at risk of being altered if in so doing their value increases enough to justify the time involved. Lessor condition high dollar cards are as susceptible to altering as the high grade material.

Greg,

That's probably a very accurate assessment of what work has been done. Clearly all of the surface damage to the paper stock, especially on the back edges has been flattened out. But what in my opinion should have raised red flags to any grader is that the upper frayed corners are squared off, which clearly isn't natural wear for a low grade card.

Yes, it would be great if law enforcement cuffed and stuffed some of these low-lifes, but on the other hand if PSA was competent in detecting these significant card alterations, the card doctors would be out of business and move on to some other means of making money.

Yes, I agree with you that it appears the card doctors have a "no card left behind" mentality. If money can be made on a card, regardless of the condition, then as this thread has revealed, cards will be worked on to increase their value. This debunks the myth that buying low grade cards is safe hedge from being defrauded.

[botn]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Greg,

That's probably a very accurate assessment of what work has been done. Clearly all of the surface damage to the paper stock, especially on the back edges has been flattened out. But what in my opinion should have raised red flags to any grader is that the upper frayed corners are squared off, which clearly isn't natural wear for a low grade card.

Yes, it would be great if law enforcement cuffed and stuffed some of these low-lifes, but on the other hand if PSA was competent in detecting these significant card alterations, the card doctors would be out of business and move on to some other means of making money.

Yes, I agree with you that it appears the card doctors have a "no card left behind" mentality. If money can be made on a card, regardless of the condition, then as this thread has revealed, cards will be worked on to increase their value. This debunks the myth that buying low grade cards is safe hedge from being defrauded.

Dan,
PSA has a policy, sure SGC does as well, that if a card gives the perception of having been altered, it will not be holdered. That is the reason why cards with factory cuts but are below factory sizes do not get encapsulated, so yes PSA should have rejected the Gehrig merely on the appearance as it does not look natural.

Grading companies should be able to detect alterations but truth is many alterations that can raise a card many grades will never be detected when done right. Just like in professional sports the athletes using PEDs are 2 steps, or more ahead, of the guys trying to catch them. If guys are not going to stop altering cards and grading companies cannot detect them then that leaves it up to law enforcement to make some examples. Plenty of guys out there making millions a year messing with cardboard but seems shill bidding is the crime du jour.

The value of a card, not the condition, determine if it is a candidate for altering. Has always been that way.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sean,

Do you watch any real life detective shows? Think of it like this. When an investigator asks a suspect a question, doesn't the investigator already know the answer (and have the proof) before he even asks the question? Sure he does. All, he's doing is giving the supsect a chance to answer honestly. If he lies, then he incriminates himself even more. Why would I tell what I know at this point? I want to hear an explanation and if that explanation contradicts what I know, then I have the proof to pop him with a lie.

exactly. +1.

i actually read 38 pages of the other thread. i couldn't take any more. im glad this got regrouped into an easier to follow consolidated thread as there were like 20 some pages of pure fluff.

kevin

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If nothing else, PSA has the ability to determine who submitted those cards and ban them from ever submitting again.

Oh really, and who would expect PSA to do that.
That is what an ethical company would do.