Non-delivery/severe delay on a BST transaction

[Republicaninmass]

Make sure to go on usps and change delivery instructions back to your house. Maybe that will shake it loose?

[mintacular]

Pretty worthless thread, the seller should have paid the additional $5 or so insurance originally---sellers should always protect themselves again postal mishaps on $100+ transactions (or suffer the $ $ consequences). This is even more apparent since the seller did not know the buyer but even so, the postal office misplaces, loses, and steals items everyday

When the card did not arrive arrive a refund in short thrift was due. A simple short and quick question & answer to the buyer may have been appropriate but for them to wait this long with all the back and forth is TOTALLY uncalled for....

Look, if you don't want to be a professional seller and all that comes with that DO NOT SELL CARDS. Last but not least, as a seller if you think insurance will be needed price that into your accepted sale price

[Brian Van Horn]

Gentlemen,

Just a couple of points here.

First, in all the time I have been selling I have used certified mail. I estimate that to be over 4,000 transactions. This is the second time a package has been lost. A success rate that equates to greater than 99.95%. I will continue to use certified mail as the process for delivering cards. If anyone would like insurance, I will be more than happy to comply and advise them of the additional cost.

Second, there was a previous case, not related to the two in which cards did not arrive, in which the cards arrived after 2 1/2 months. Just providing complete disclosure.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Gentlemen,

Just a couple of points here.

First, in all the time I have been selling I have used certified mail. I estimate that to be over 4,000 transactions. This is the second time a package has been lost. A success rate that equates to greater than 99.95%. I will continue to use certified mail as the process for delivering cards. If anyone would like insurance, I will be more than happy to comply and advise them of the additional cost.

Second, there was a previous case, not related to the two in which cards did not arrive, in which the cards arrived after 2 1/2 months. Just providing complete disclosure.

Brian, I see your point about packages sometimes taking that long to show up. We all know it happens but making the buyer wait that long isn't right. You probably should have refunded after 30 days and trust that the buyer would pay if the package eventually did show up.

As for insurance, it protects the seller not the buyer especially when Paypal is used. Add it to the cost for your own peace of mind.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Pretty worthless thread, the seller should have paid the additional $5 or so insurance originally---sellers should always protect themselves again postal mishaps on $100+ transactions (or suffer the $ $ consequences). This is even more apparent since the seller did not know the buyer but even so, the postal office misplaces, loses, and steals items everyday

When the card did not arrive arrive a refund in short thrift was due. A simple short and quick question & answer to the buyer may have been appropriate but for them to wait this long with all the back and forth is TOTALLY uncalled for....

Look, if you don't want to be a professional seller and all that comes with that DO NOT SELL CARDS. Last but not least, as a seller if you think insurance will be needed price that into your accepted sale price

Agreed. The buyer should have been refunded quickly and without a hassle. No, it’s not how “every” transaction works necessarily, but it’s what buyers have come to expect, and the most professional thing to do.


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[RedsFan1941]

hopefully this concludes this thread

[ValKehl]

Brian, certified mail costs $3.55, and it is my understanding that this doesn't protect the shipper from loss or damage by the USPS while in transit. For the same $3.55 you can purchase $200 of USPS insurance to cover such loss or damage. BTW, if one purchases over $500 of USPS insurance, the USPS carrier is required to obtain a signature upon delivery, and this is reflected in the cost of insurance - $500 of USPS insurance costs $7.10, and $501 of insurance costs $9.55. FYI, I never purchase certified mail, but I almost always purchase insurance when I ship cards worth more than $100.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian, certified mail costs $3.55, and it is my understanding that this doesn't protect the shipper from loss or damage by the USPS while in transit. For the same $3.55 you can purchase $200 of USPS insurance to cover such loss or damage. BTW, if one purchases over $500 of USPS insurance, the USPS carrier is required to obtain a signature upon delivery, and this is reflected in the cost of insurance - $500 of USPS insurance costs $7.10, and $501 of insurance costs $9.55. FYI, I never purchase certified mail, but I almost always purchase insurance when I ship cards worth more than $100.

I will sometimes purchase insurance for less than the value of what I am sending and "self insure" for the balance. If it's a bigger deal - will always take at least as much insurance as will require a signature.

[oldjudge]

Brian-If you are shipping certified but guaranteeing to the buyer that the card/cards will arrive or you will refund their purchase price why would the buyer ever pay additional for insurance? I suggest that in the future you quote a base price plus “shipping” for each card. If the buyer wants insurance he has to pay for it. If he turns insurance down then he is assuming risk of loss. All you need is delivery confirmation, you are wasting money on certified mail.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Brian-If you are shipping certified but guaranteeing to the buyer that the card/cards will arrive or you will refund their purchase price why would the buyer ever pay additional for insurance? I suggest that in the future you quote a base price plus “shipping” for each card. If the buyer wants insurance he has to pay for it. If he turns insurance down then he is assuming risk of loss. All you need is delivery confirmation, you are wasting money on certified mail.

Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. Refusing to buy insurance doesn't put the buyer on the hook for damage or loss. That's nonsense. It's the job of the seller to get the item to the buyer safely. Period. The buyer doesn't have to pay extra to make that happen. If insurance is purchased, who is still responsible for properly packaging the item since a claim will be rejected for improper packaging? The seller. If there's a problem, who makes the claim? The seller. Who collects if the claim is paid out? The seller. That's why the seller pays for insurance and the buyer has nothing to do with it.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. Refusing to buy insurance doesn't put the buyer on the hook for damage or loss. That's nonsense. It's the job of the seller to get the item to the buyer safely. Period. The buyer doesn't have to pay extra to make that happen. If insurance is purchased, who is still responsible for properly packaging the item since a claim will be rejected for improper packaging? The seller. If there's a problem, who makes the claim? The seller. Who collects if the claim is paid out? The seller. That's why the seller pays for insurance and the buyer has nothing to do with it.

Chris for the win! Common sense prevails.

[jchcollins]

Insuring packages for their actual value is nothing new. My LCS dealer does bulk submissions to PSA and Beckett for his customers. He gets the insurance charges back in what he upsells them for to do the grading, but it’s not uncommon for him to insure a single shipment for $15 - 20K. He did tell me the post office thinks he’s crazy; he usually ships via UPS.


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[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian, certified mail costs $3.55, and it is my understanding that this doesn't protect the shipper from loss or damage by the USPS while in transit. For the same $3.55 you can purchase $200 of USPS insurance to cover such loss or damage. BTW, if one purchases over $500 of USPS insurance, the USPS carrier is required to obtain a signature upon delivery, and this is reflected in the cost of insurance - $500 of USPS insurance costs $7.10, and $501 of insurance costs $9.55. FYI, I never purchase certified mail, but I almost always purchase insurance when I ship cards worth more than $100.

Val,

I appreciate it, but it is not for the same $3.55. Insurance would be an extra charge. I wanted to hold off on comment until after visiting my local post office. Given the insurance and my want for a signature, the amount would be greater. Here is a USPS rate sheet. The encircled areas were done by the clerk on duty.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Brian-If you are shipping certified but guaranteeing to the buyer that the card/cards will arrive or you will refund their purchase price why would the buyer ever pay additional for insurance? I suggest that in the future you quote a base price plus “shipping” for each card. If the buyer wants insurance he has to pay for it. If he turns insurance down then he is assuming risk of loss. All you need is delivery confirmation, you are wasting money on certified mail.

Jay,

I appreciate it. I hate the idea of giving up on a system that has worked all but two times in over 4,000 transactions, but I have to consider that signature confirmation is 40 cents cheaper. In both cases in which this failed, the buyer has been refunded.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Val,

I appreciate it, but it is not for the same $3.55. Insurance would be an extra charge. I wanted to hold off on comment until after visiting my local post office. Given the insurance and my want for a signature, the amount would be greater. Here is a USPS rate sheet. The encircled areas were done by the clerk on duty.

Brian, you misinterpreted my comment. What I thought I was clearly saying is that for the same $$ you are spending on certified mail (which does little for you, IMO), you could purchase $200 of USPS insurance instead.

BTW, I am not concerned about getting a signature for items that I have insured for up to $500 (over $500 of insurance, the USPS automatically gets a signature). If the USPS Tracking System shows my item was delivered, then I'm in the clear if it disappears from the purchaser's mailbox or porch. If the purchaser claims it arrived damaged, then I require the purchaser to send me pics of the damage which I submit with my claim to the USPS. Over the past 20 years, I've had a few items either disappear or be damaged in transit, and the USPS has always paid my claims on a timely basis.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Brian, you misinterpreted my comment. What I thought I was clearly saying is that for the same $$ you are spending on certified mail (which does little for you, IMO), you could purchase $200 of USPS insurance instead.

BTW, I am not concerned about getting a signature for items that I have insured for up to $500 (over $500 of insurance, the USPS automatically gets a signature). If the USPS Tracking System shows my item was delivered, then I'm in the clear if it disappears from the purchaser's mailbox or porch. If the purchaser claims it arrived damaged, then I require the purchaser to send me pics of the damage which I submit with my claim to the USPS. Over the past 20 years, I've had a few items either disappear or be damaged in transit, and the USPS has always paid my claims on a timely basis.

My apologies for my misinterpretation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Insurance protects the seller not the buyer. Refusing to buy insurance doesn't put the buyer on the hook for damage or loss. That's nonsense. It's the job of the seller to get the item to the buyer safely. Period. The buyer doesn't have to pay extra to make that happen. If insurance is purchased, who is still responsible for properly packaging the item since a claim will be rejected for improper packaging? The seller. If there's a problem, who makes the claim? The seller. Who collects if the claim is paid out? The seller. That's why the seller pays for insurance and the buyer has nothing to do with it.

also its the seller that sets the terms...if the seller doesnt say 'delivery confirmation means no refunds' or whatever he really wants..he needs to be specifics....any vagueness the benefit goes to the buyer.....just like writing a contract...whoever writes the contract sets the terms but is also on the hook for any vagueness

[facingthelake1188]

First, I would like to thank the veteran member who sent me this old thread, you know who you are. This old thread lays out the same circumstances that I outlined in my recent post. It appears that my seller has been involved in similar situations with other members of this forum. He outs himself so I no longer have to debate myself on whether or not I should do so. I would like to point out that what he says about sending things out certified was not in my case for whatever reason. It certainly seems like the overwhelming majority of members agree that the seller should be held responsible for refunding a buyer for a non-delivered package. I, as an eBay seller for over ten years, have issued refunds on the only two occasions when this occurred. Yes, it sucks to have to lose money but that’s life. And doing what’s right should always take priority over money.
SO BRIAN, COULD YOU PLEASE NOW RESPOND TO MY REPEATED REQUESTS AND ISSUE ME A REFUND, and go file a claim with the post office. Maybe that will jar this package loose once some pressure is put on and if I ever receive it I would happily pay you for it as agreed.

[Leon]

I hope you aren't under the misconception your full name doesn't need to be out here. Circumventing the rule, in bold letters at the top of each page, by bumping this thread doesn't negate the need to have it here. Thanks

Originally Posted by facingthelake1188

First, I would like to thank the veteran member who sent me this old thread, you know who you are. This old thread lays out the same circumstances that I outlined in my recent post. It appears that my seller has been involved in similar situations with other members of this forum. He outs himself so I no longer have to debate myself on whether or not I should do so. I would like to point out that what he says about sending things out certified was not in my case for whatever reason. It certainly seems like the overwhelming majority of members agree that the seller should be held responsible for refunding a buyer for a non-delivered package. I, as an eBay seller for over ten years, have issued refunds on the only two occasions when this occurred. Yes, it sucks to have to lose money but that’s life. And doing what’s right should always take priority over money.
SO BRIAN, COULD YOU PLEASE NOW RESPOND TO MY REPEATED REQUESTS AND ISSUE ME A REFUND, and go file a claim with the post office. Maybe that will jar this package loose once some pressure is put on and if I ever receive it I would happily pay you for it as agreed.

[Chris-Counts]

I have kicked myself for buying insurance so many times without an incident. But the one time I needed it, I had to file a claim against UPS for destroying a $2,500 item, which they refused to pay because they said I packaged it poorly. I took them to small claims court, and when the UPS rep made the same claim there, I produced a receipt for about $30 worth of packing materials, which I had purchased from UPS the day the package was sent. The judge ordered UPS to pay me, which they did.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by facingthelake1188

First, I would like to thank the veteran member who sent me this old thread, you know who you are. This old thread lays out the same circumstances that I outlined in my recent post. It appears that my seller has been involved in similar situations with other members of this forum. He outs himself so I no longer have to debate myself on whether or not I should do so. I would like to point out that what he says about sending things out certified was not in my case for whatever reason. It certainly seems like the overwhelming majority of members agree that the seller should be held responsible for refunding a buyer for a non-delivered package. I, as an eBay seller for over ten years, have issued refunds on the only two occasions when this occurred. Yes, it sucks to have to lose money but that’s life. And doing what’s right should always take priority over money.
SO BRIAN, COULD YOU PLEASE NOW RESPOND TO MY REPEATED REQUESTS AND ISSUE ME A REFUND, and go file a claim with the post office. Maybe that will jar this package loose once some pressure is put on and if I ever receive it I would happily pay you for it as agreed.

I hope all members read this and learn a valuable lesson to always use PayPal Goods and Services no matter who the seller is.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I hope all members read this and learn a valuable lesson to always use PayPal Goods and Services no matter who the seller is.

What would Paypal G&S do in this situation? I assume they would reimburse the buyer. Would they charge back the seller?

I had this conversation with another member recently. Neither of us is sure whether PayPal provides some insurance benefit or is merely guaranteeing seller's performance.

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[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

What would Paypal G&S do in this situation? I assume they would reimburse the buyer. Would they charge back the seller?

I had this conversation with another member recently. Neither of us is sure whether PayPal provides some insurance benefit or is merely guaranteeing seller's performance.

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Goods and Services offers buyers protection in case the package never delivered or the item is different than the seller descibed. You will receive a refund.

PayPal offers Friends and Family for non-purchase transactions between Friends and Family. A lot of people don't know its against PayPal rules to use F&F to buy stuff because you're cheating them out of their fees and you're account can be suspended.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Goods and Services offers buyers protection in case the package never delivered or the item is different than the seller descibed. You will receive a refund.

PayPal offers Friends and Family for non-purchase transactions between Friends and Family. A lot of people don't know its against PayPal rules to use F&F to buy stuff because you're cheating them out of their fees and you're account can be suspended.

You describe it as a refund, so does that mean PayPal is charging back the seller? Outside of taking the money back from the seller and refunding the customer are they providing any other benefit? I assume they are taking the risk they can't collect from the seller.

I guess what I am asking is in the case of Brian and Kevin, would PayPal G&S function as an insurer? Or would they just act as the Net54 chorus and make Brian refund Kevin?

To ask this another way: right now Brian is out the money and the 4 cards, and Kevin is whole. If Kevin had used G&S would anything change, other than one of the two would be out another 3%?

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[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

You describe it as a refund, so does that mean PayPal is charging back the seller? Outside of taking the money back from the seller and refunding the customer are they providing any other benefit? I assume they are taking the risk they can't collect from the seller.

I guess what I am asking is in the case of Brian and Kevin, would PayPal G&S function as an insurer? Or would they just act as the Net54 chorus and make Brian refund Kevin?

To ask this another way: right now Brian is out the money and the 4 cards, and Kevin is whole. If Kevin had used G&S would anything change, other than one of the two would be out another 3%?

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PayPal refunds the buyer then goes after the seller for the money. If the seller has no money in their account, PayPal puts a hold for that amount and if the sellers sells another item, PayPal will take money to satisfy the hold.

PayPal has been known to use collection agencies to collect from sellers, whose accounts are negative so I assume it affect their credit rating as well but not 100% sure on that.

Sellers assume the risk and take the loss on lost packages, unless they purchase insurance through the carrier or privately.