Should Some Interference Be Allowed In The BST Areas?

[ALBB]

Yea, its a seller tactic,

its a bit annoying,

everyone obviously sees what the seller is trying to do - " look that last Mantle in that shape sold for XX, Im only asking XY

If your at a show and a dealer say that to you..you kind of say to yourself " who cares, thats got nothing to do with this possible sale "

I dont think anything needs to be done

[SAllen2556]

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway
Whatever it is, I'm against it
No matter what it is or who commenced it
I'm against it

Your proposition may be good
But let's have one thing understood:
Whatever it is, I'm against it
And even when you've changed it or condensed it
I'm against it
I'm opposed to it
On general principles, I'm opposed to it.

-The beauty of the free market is that it corrects itself. No need to mess with it here. I've always liked the philosophy that "the fewer the rules, the better".

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I am in favor of reasonable/legitimate forum member interjection on BST listings.

There must be over 100 instances throughout the years in which I've wanted to comment, but just bit my tongue instead. Didn't want to go against forum etiquette, but it's tough to stomach deceptive listings.

Since KM is now gone, it's gotten better, but still some bad listings out there.

I must have missed this. Who is KM?

[FrankWakefield]

I realize most of the comments are about price...

If there's something on BST that looks like it's not authentic, and I see it, I'd be inclined to message the seller, or post on that BST, that the item isn't genuine, or is suspicious.

On the pricing issue, who of us has not ever paid more for an item that it may have been worth? I certainly have 'overpaid' for cards, ticket stubs, and postcards.... I wasn't trying to get a good deal or a steal, I really wanted to acquire the item. Similarly, who of us has something that we want to keep, that we don't want to sell for some normal price? I've got stuff that I'd not sell for double the normal price. As do many of you guys.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I must have missed this. Who is KM?

Mr. Mize.

[chalupacollects]

In favor of leaving as is... Unless it is a fraudulent item. Then maybe a note to the seller - who may not know its a bad item.

Personally, If I see something I want, I do the research on price vs. condition and go from there. If its graded I track back the cert number to see where it may have come from to avoid the "bad guys' items... caveat emptor....

[1952boyntoncollector]

funny years ago i cited an auction that was left out the same fact pattern and was met with criticism for that....years go by and now what I did is being considered....too soon for my time...story of my life

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

funny years ago i cited an auction that was left out the same fact pattern and was met with criticism for that....years go by and now what I did is being considered....too soon for my time...story of my life

Things get reconsidered all of the time. Change is much less often. I appreciate all of the comments so far.
.

[Snapolit1]

I just think it would inevitably devolve into stuff like "Gee, $1800 . . . . wasn't that sold last week at LOTG for $650?"

There's deceptive and there's exaggeration and there's the buyer who misrepresents unwittingly and there's just greed . . . so many diffferent flavors.

A rule that you can call someone out on inaccuracies about what they are selling ("hey that's not a 1914 CJ but a 1915. . .") seems prefectly fine to me.

[hcv123]

I generally agree that changing the rules would be akin to opening up a can of worms.

An issue like pricing/value (or grading) practically includes subjectivity. As the specific question you asked was about publicly available and easily accessed information, I think the responsibility for due diligence is on both the buyer and seller. We frequently discuss "caveat emptor" and "eye appeal premium" - perhaps the seller is noting cards that he believes are the closest representation to his regarding that? I know anytime I am looking at purchasing a card, I could care less what "comps" a seller is providing - I do my own homework.


That said, I think you could handle on a case-by-case basis a seller who is in your opinion repeatedly & purposefully trying to dupe.

A grayer area to me would be calling attention to cards or items with known controversy that may not be as easily accessible. I recall a thread recently where the authenticity of certain sealed packs had been discussed in an article which the poster linked to in the thread. Another example would be a card that someone knows/notices has been called into question as to it's alteration by BODA (with a link to the appropriate page). Not sure if/where to draw a line, but something like this would seem like a better argument could be made than for "simple" pricing.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Seems like a shit show waiting to happen and bad listings sitting at the top of the page due to constant bumps for correction or arguments.

I would rather have a rule that if comps are listed they must be the most recent 5 or 7 for the same card with same grade and sale date with grading service listed. If it’s not and selective comps are given the thread is locked.

Try using selective comps and not the newest most similar on a mortgage underwrite and you have a rejection from the investor. No pick and choose.

1) I respectfully believe such a rule would be not helpful. As has been previously stated - "comps" for a particular grade do not reflect a number of factors important in valuation, "eye appeal" at the top of the list. What if the last 5-7 sales had inferior or superior eye appeal (which is also a largely subjective measure).

2) When I bought my 1st house, I pursued financing through 2 different lenders (my nature). They each brought in their own "professional" appraiser. 1 appraisal came in at 420K. The other at 520K. Sorry, but based on my experience - PLENTY of pick and choose!

[parkplace33]

Unless the comps are false, I don't have a problem with them being in the post.

The bottom line is the price of the card. Everything else is fluff.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

And who, pray tell, decides what the limits are for this type of interference?? It's a huge can of worms. There is nothing more annoying than someone bringing their BS into someone else's FS/FT thread, as it's happened to me and plenty of others before. It'll start with some sort of casual, "You missed a few pertinent comps, old boy" and then dissolve into a sh*tshow as people start throwing their opinions into people's threads just for a laugh.

Caveat emptor. Everyone around here knows what the deal is, so each should do their own research and fact finding. If it ain't broke...

+1

This is a classic slippery slope and will degenerate fast if allowed.

[Leon]

Ya'll (I will never use "yawl" again unless it's a sailboat) know me and know how I have felt, forever. The member makes a persuasive argument but hasn't moved the needle for needing change, imo. I think it's appropriate to post the actual written rule, under the Forum Rules icon, as most probably haven't read it. And, as stated, fraudulent activity IS the exception, which is ok to expose in BST threads.


Posts offering to buy, sell, or trade items should be made in the appropriate Buy/Sell/Trade index. This includes posts for items appearing in on-line auctions such as eBay, Grand Slam Bids and auction houses etc... Buy/Sell/Trade threads in the wrong categories, or forums, will be moved or deleted. There should be no interference by 3rd parties within the Buy/Sell/Trade areas. Third parties are those not involved in a transaction. This includes, but is not limited to, posting current or historical cost information, commenting negatively on the offer or item, or anything that interferes with the listing in a negative way. Only persons involved in the transaction should post in the thread, however benign or favorable comments are generally permitted by third parties. If you don't know the difference between them, then please don't post. One exception is to expose fraudulent activity. It may always be posted in any thread, anywhere on the board, but you better have your ducks in a row and your name by your post when you report these misdeeds. “Caveat Emptor- Buyer Beware” to all members. Each member uses the board at their own risk. Net54baseball does not monitor, and is not responsible for, transactions. Our sole recourse, in a punitive manner is suspension or banishment from the board. The Uniform Commercial Code of Law of the United States applies. We will work with authority’s when/if the need arises. Please request references from your trading partners when they are not well known or you don’t know them. Whenever someone resists giving a reference, upon request, please contact the moderator as that is, many times, a red flag.

Once any transaction is completed in the Buy/Sell/Trade areas, or over with, that transaction shouldn’t be deleted. Specific pricing, or confidential information may be removed but the other information should stay. Items should be consolidated in the BST area, into one thread, when appropriate. In other words don’t list more than a few similar items in single threads, in the same BST area, at once. IF you do this, they will most likely be deleted and asked to be posted again in a consolidated fashion. You should not bump a BST thread to the top very often (every 3-4 days at most) as it is discourteous to other posters.

[nolemmings]

Slippery slope-- I'd leave it as is except for mis-identified and unauthentic cards.

A reference to comps is just a guide, not an assurance that all sales were thoroughly investigated and are given. So long as the information is reasonably accurate and not a flat-out misrepresentation, let it be, as Paul McCartney might say.

On a barely related subject, my rant would be toward those who fail/refuse to put WTB on their subject lines. Many times I have clicked on a thread thinking it might be something I would consider owning, only to see there's nothing for sale and just a solicitation for someone to please sell to the poster. I must confess there have been times I thought about "interfering" with those threads by posting a thank you for wasting my time (well, maybe not thank you, but something to drive the point home).

[Bigdaddy]

Totally agree with the slippery slope argument. What if the seller leaves out one comp, or two? Is that enough to call them out? And as another poster pointed out, all PSA 5s are not created equal. Would we call out a seller for asking too little for a card? Maybe they didn't notice the band-aid on Al Kaline's forehead. Just seems like something that is hard to police and would take much time/effort on Leon's part and/or bring unnecessary drama into BST threads.

I agree that we should call out forgeries, altered cards, reprints, etc, but those are usually best handled through PMs.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Slippery slope-- I'd leave it as is except for mis-identified and unauthentic cards.

A reference to comps is just a guide, not an assurance that all sales were thoroughly investigated and are given. So long as the information is reasonably accurate and not a flat-out misrepresentation, let it be, as Paul McCartney might say.

On a barely related subject, my rant would be toward those who fail/refuse to put WTB on their subject lines. Many times I have clicked on a thread thinking it might be something I would consider owning, only to see there's nothing for sale and just a solicitation for someone to please sell to the poster. I must confess there have been times I thought about "interfering" with those threads by posting a thank you for wasting my time (well, maybe not thank you, but something to drive the point home).

I have clicked on several listing also to only find out they are looking for the same card(s) as I am. Also adding the end date to auctions in the title should be a rule.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have clicked on several listing also to only find out they are looking for the same card(s) as I am. Also adding the end date to auctions in the title should be a rule.

Yes to the bold part for sure! Also, I'd love to see a rule/guideline that posting a new comment on your own BST thread only to say that an item is sold or NLA is not allowed, as this only pushes active listings down the page.

[darwinbulldog]

I'd say it comes down to the factual accuracy in the OP. If they're posting prices of some comps, well that's sort of what I assume many people with something to sell will do. If they're just saying, "Look, here are some similar cards and what they sold for," they've done nothing wrong. Maybe those are the five most recent sales, or maybe they're the five most recent sales on eBay, or maybe they're the five highest prices of the ten most recent sales. In any case, they aren't anything other than what the seller presented them as. If they claim these are the most recent sales but have omitted one (or more), whether by accident or to deceive, then I think it's good for someone else to post the missing data. Otherwise, that's not called for.

Which is to say I'm fine with sellers as long as they're posting the truth and nothing but the truth. It need not be the whole truth, however one might define that. And I don't think it's good for the spirit of the forum if people are posting additional information detrimental to a seller who didn't post anything incorrect to begin with.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by ALBB

…sold for XX, Im only asking XY

That’s a rather manly asking price.

[perezfan]

Remember... there is also a prominent BST section for memorabilia. The "interjection" argument applies more to memorabilia than cards. Most cards are cataloged and categorized with universally known manufacturers, issue dates, values, etc.

With memorabilia, problematic issues involve more than just stating comps. Issues can involve the erroneous dating of a pennant, the mis-identification of a vintage photo, the authenticity of an ad sign, a forged autograph, or the incorrect tagging of a game-used uniform.

There are dozens of other potential issues... ranging from a simple mistake, to a novice seller, to outright fraud. I see nothing wrong with correcting such listings, as long as the interjection is valid. It is beyond frustrating to watch such listings run without any ability to correct or comment, until someone gets burned.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I must have missed this. Who is KM?

Shares a first name with Mr. Youkilis

Shares a last name with "The Big Cat".

[Fred]

Getting back to the original post -

Why not just have the BST seller provide a brief description of the item and the price. No "historical" sales data allowed. If someone really wants to dig it up, then they'll do that.

No commenting by third parties on the BST threads except to ask questions about the item (condition? has it been to a TPG in the past? size?), say "I'll take it" or the occasional - "wow, that's a nice card" comment" that we see from time to time.

Very clear, no ambiguity and no drama.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Shares a first name with Mr. Youkilis

Shares a last name with "The Big Cat".

Kevin Galarraga

[Flintboy]

Not to stray too far from the topic but what about a few common sense rules for the BST forum? One would be everything listed must have a price. The “I’m taking offers” is complete nonsense.

[brad31]

I look up comps before buying if it is not a card I have been following. I once used a comp not realizing it was what the seller recently paid! Ended up likIng the card for the grade enough that I still bought it giving the seller enough meat on the bone.

I have no problem with pricing info being disclosed but think in general this group is knowledgeable enough not to need it. I hate seeing people being duped so am 100% for calling out fakes or misrepresentations (I.e. a reprint listed as a real card or a card that is recolored or trimmed and evidence is shared to how you drew that conclusion). I hate seeing people get duped - but asking more than something is worth clogs up the BST threads more than hurts anyone in my opinion.

I do not sell on here (or really anywhere) but have bought from many.

[JustinD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALBB View Post
…sold for XX, Im only asking XY

Originally Posted by Eric72

That’s a rather manly asking price.

* cymbal crash *

[BRoberts]

It will be a mess.

[doug.goodman]

I'm honestly more bothered by some people saying LTB and others saying WTB than I am by people showing only higher comps. My OCD kicking in, I suppose.

Buyer beware.

Caveat emptor.

Etc.

Doug

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I'm honestly more bothered by some people saying LTB and others saying WTB than I am by people showing only higher comps. My OCD kicking in, I suppose.

Buyer beware.

Caveat emptor.

Etc.

Doug

My vote is LTB

[glchen]

I vote: no comps allowed in BST threads. If a buyer negotiates via PM/email, then the seller can use their comps to justify the price via the private PM/email, but not in the thread. This would make the rules simple.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

I'd vote not to "over legislate" the B/S/T. If someone posts misleading comps, so be it. As a seller you will develop an unseemly reputation and likely also be called out by a member or two. Expect it. Mod's allow it to happen. Of course forum etiquette still applies.

And that's the thing, if you're going to post ridiculous comps from say, 2021, then you invite others to call out your unscrupulous behavior. Don't get mad when they do. Most understand ~Buyer Beware~

[refz]

I’m ok with this, I know m off a lot of times with pricing.


Perhaps other areas also not only pricing and sales. Education is how we grow!

[ullmandds]

i'd like someone to tell me my price is too low...as this has been my issue in the past...so I could raise it!!!

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'd like someone to tell me my price is too low...as this has been my issue in the past...so I could raise it!!!

Lol me too. It took me a while to figure out that having everything I list sell within an hour isn’t necessarily a good thing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'd like someone to tell me my price is too low...as this has been my issue in the past...so I could raise it!!!

I would tell you. After I posted/PMed you I would take it and then received it in the mail.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'd like someone to tell me my price is too low...as this has been my issue in the past...so I could raise it!!!

There was a T206 BST thread in which the seller drastically under-priced a Titus. That discussion became a bit...spirited.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=titus

So, the door does swing both ways. In either case, the end result seems similar.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would tell you. After I posted/PMed you I would take it and then received it in the mail.

Haha! Nice ben! Its the stuff that sells in minutes or less! Either super desirable or underpriced!!

[JollyElm]

This pair is relatively pertinent to the thread. You just have to switch the focus of the first one to selling rather than trading...

483. Mathematricks (or Laughtermath)
The purposeful use of only outlier data by someone trying to convince you that the card he is offering in a trade is equal to the high value card of yours he’s looking to score.

519. Fool’s Sold
Adding a new post to your own thread (that everyone is now forced to read) to declare that the card has been sold, instead of simply editing the title to reflect this fact.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Fred

Kevin Galarraga

That portrait of Honus Wagner never showed up in any auction I've seen. I recall over the course of 3-4 years there were repeated representations that it was off to auction and how we would all regret the staggering selling price it would score.

[inceptus]

FWIW, I listed a card several months ago and unintentionally understated the graded pop. (I had not accounted for cards with this particular back that have been graded without a note regarding the back variation.) I received feedback in a subsequent post, and really appreciated the opportunity to learn and correct my listing.

[ALBB]

and it could turn into a real mess, allowing guys to comment/counter/ rip apart/ piss off people with stuff like -

Yea, dude...but its not the exact same card

That was 2 years ago, prices have come down

That player/ card is no longer red hot

Your friggin insane asking that much

etc, etc

Now , believe me...their are probably loads of members that would love to fire back a post to a seller whos " looking for as much as he could get " ... but it would be messy

It would be incredibly entertaining ..no doubt ...but could lead to one of those 500-1000 post responses ! LOL

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

No, disagree completely.

Caveat Emptor rules the day, if you're too lazy as a buyer to do your homework and educate yourself and then take the sellers word on value, then you deserve to pay a higher price. The numbers are out there for free, use them. I've had buyers use the same silly tactic to try and drive my asking price down, let's just say I won't deal with that buyer anymore because it's bad form whether a seller or buyer uses that tactic, it's not what BST is about.

It wasn't too far in the past that you would admonish any member commenting on a BST listing with anything but positive comments.

Agree 100%. The buyer should do their homework.

[brad31]

Originally Posted by glchen

I vote: no comps allowed in BST threads. If a buyer negotiates via PM/email, then the seller can use their comps to justify the price via the private PM/email, but not in the thread. This would make the rules simple.

I like this idea.

[Snapolit1]

There seems to be a pretty good consensus that "Buyer should do their homework."

I guess everyone's cool when they are ripped off and are the victim of fraud.

"Hey, that car you just bought with the representation that the odometer was never messed with. Sorry. I just signed that. It's total bullshit. Buy, hey, you're cool with that, right?"

"That seller's disclosure for the house you bought? Yeah, I sort of lied on a good deal of that. That white stuff in the basement actually is asbestos. And the roof wasn't replaced in 2007. Ooopsie!"

"That card was actually trimmed. A few AHs told me that. And no I didn't feel a need to tell you that."

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I agree 100% with this.

Same here. It’s incumbent on us as fellow members to call out any inaccuracies or misleading statements and to protect our fellow board members. Not our job to critique pricing absent anything misleading though.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by hcv123

2) When I bought my 1st house, I pursued financing through 2 different lenders (my nature). They each brought in their own "professional" appraiser. 1 appraisal came in at 420K. The other at 520K. Sorry, but based on my experience - PLENTY of pick and choose!

I can believe you prior to a certain date but as someone who worked for the largest mortgage lender in the country and now works for the largest government sponsored mortgage investor in the country, I can assure you that if there is now the slightest proven impropriety the appraiser and appraisal is gone forever. The Wild West of appraisal is long gone. Now, you more than likely would forced to use the first appraisal in even if the second comes in a million higher unless you can prove error in the first by negligence. Trust me, it’s not easy.

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway
Whatever it is, I'm against it
No matter what it is or who commenced it
I'm against it

Your proposition may be good
But let's have one thing understood:
Whatever it is, I'm against it
And even when you've changed it or condensed it
I'm against it
I'm opposed to it
On general principles, I'm opposed to it.

-The beauty of the free market is that it corrects itself. No need to mess with it here. I've always liked the philosophy that "the fewer the rules, the better".

Groucho Marx sang something like this in one of the Marx Brothers films, no?

Phil aka Tere1071

[Tabe]

If you're a seller bothered by someone posting comps that make your post look bad, you deserve to get called out.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

There seems to be a pretty good consensus that "Buyer should do their homework."

I guess everyone's cool when they are ripped off and are the victim of fraud.

"Hey, that car you just bought with the representation that the odometer was never messed with. Sorry. I just signed that. It's total bullshit. Buy, hey, you're cool with that, right?"

"That seller's disclosure for the house you bought? Yeah, I sort of lied on a good deal of that. That white stuff in the basement actually is asbestos. And the roof wasn't replaced in 2007. Ooopsie!"

"That card was actually trimmed. A few AHs told me that. And no I didn't feel a need to tell you that."

Yep, seems like we have a lot of sellers among us. Reminds me of the first time that I went on BST when I joined the board. I priced things way too low in a fear of not offending the royalty on this board. One guy buys a card from me for a very below market fair price. He then comes back to me on PM and tells me that the card was diamond cut - but in an effort not to ruin my reputation on the board in the case that he outs me (even though there was a large picture of the 58 Mantlet card that he could make me a fair judgement on), he tells me that I n=eed to refund $25 - half of the very fair $50 price that many people came on and asked for - but I honored the price to him because he was he first one to ask - and I refund him. Even though I told him to tear the card in half and I would send him $50, he told me that it was for his PC and he was just a bit offended that the card was not as described. I am sure that he would be quick to share comps with me on a $400 or $500 card. But because I didn't want to get a reputation as a bad seller on this site, I sent him a paypal for $25. So, let's make sure that every dealer and flipper on this site gets the absolute benefit of the doubt - lest we out someone for trying to get rid of some cards yet, I think his name was something like MLBtraderumors. You can go ahead and out me for a card that was fairly shared and if you thought it was a diamond cut, then you should not have bought it. But sure, let's go ahead and make sure that everyone is taken advantage by the sharps. I have tried to be a good citizen on this board. I know that I overpay when I buy and sell at a loss when I sell - but that guy tried to take advantage of me. SO, if there are any rules in BST that keep that sort of behavior from happening, then count me in on it. Does it protect a buyer in the case that it is an outright lie on the comps? Ok, well good for the buyer. Too many people have been taking advantage of too many people here - starting with the guy who was going to out me for selling him a diamond cut 58 mantle for $50 in 2014 and asking for $25 back - what a loser. Next time, I will insist that you tear the card in two and I will send you back $50 plus shipping. I am sure that I can buy and sell you and if you think that you getting an extra $25 from me makes you a winner then good for you. By the way - I am not shipping to Canada and I am glad that you couldn't weasel and extra $10 out of the price of my 48 Bowman Berra. If you would like to respond personally, then good for you. I would be happy to settle this face to face. But, your threat of outing me for selling you a diamond cut 58 Mantle with perfect images - you already got your $25 back and I will be just fine.