T206's only? Please help me understand this 'F. Scott Fitzgerald' Obak

[brianp-beme]

Sometimes I am an oblivious collector. A little background info...it has been known within the hobby for years that the famous author F. Scott Fitzgerald collected T206's when he was a child in Minnesota, and that these cards were evidently stamped on their backs by him with an ornate 'F'. Supposedly Fitzgerald's childhood collection was sold in 1941 to a collector, who eventually dispersed these cards to the collecting world.

I have known about this fun hobby fact for about five years...I learned of it from you fine fellow Net54ers. I discovered at that time that I have a T206 Turner with one of these stamps (a card I probably had for a decade or so prior). This card is shown below.

Now for the dilemma. I just discovered (hello Mr. Oblivious) that I also have a 1910 Obak card (also shown) with this same distinctive stamp. Hey, I am a front collector, so please have mercy on me. I have owned this Obak of Williams for 13 to 16 years, as this was the period when I was collecting this set.

Any theories on how an Obak came into little Fitzgerald's possession? During this tobacco card era he was growing up in Minnesota, so one would figure that the T206 cards were readily available in his area. But as far as I know, the Obak set was only distributed along the West Coast. How did he end up with an Obak? Has anyone else seen a non-T206 with his stamp?

More questions...anyone familiar with FSF childhood history? Did his family travel? If he was a stay at home kid, did he perhaps trade for the Obak?

And one final doozie...do you think this Obak puts whole 'F' stamp story up to some serious scrutiny? Remember, I picked this up over a decade ago, before there was much interest in these stamps, so I don't think it is a forgery.

Would love to hear what you all think about this.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Evidently not interesting enough for a response. Perhaps I should have just posted scans of the Obak and titled it "What in the Fadoodle?"

Brian (who is Tryin' not to be Cryin')

[brianp-beme]

Brian

[RCMcKenzie]

I thought is was interesting, as I'm sure many others did. I don't think that a thread not receiving a response is necessarily a bad thing.

My purely speculative, uninformed take on it is that this Obak casts quite a bit of doubt that Fitzgerald owned and stamped these cards.

[mrvster]

Brian,
From my understanding, Fitz collected as a kid at age 15 or so (1910 error I believe)....approx....He had approx. 1000 cards that were auctioned off in the 50's by his daughter.....i'm sure there were Obaks in there also.....

most have the same "F".....I had mine graded last year....was so glad to get it.....a lot are speculated, I have seen, w EPDG backs and are in fairly nice shape....I heard EPDG were distributed in the Minn .region where he grew up...

I believe you have 2 fitzies....get 'em graded now, before some douche hole goes to staples and stamps backs to get a profit....





I believe both of your cards are the real deal....

[mrvster]

I love this card

[RCMcKenzie]

Fitzgerald spent the last years of his life living in Hollywood, 1937-1940. I suppose it's possible that he collected baseball cards in his 40's and picked up an Obak. I would think that we would see Goudey's, Diamond Stars, and Play Balls with this stamp if that were the case.

If these are in fact his, my guess is that this was an estate stamp created by the executor.

[EvilKing00]

interesting....If you can find some paperwork of his, with that same stamp then you would have some breakthrough.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks RCMcKenzie for the information on FSF Hollywood stay and your possible theory, which definitely has some teeth. I never considered that he might have picked it up later in his life, nor that the stamps could possibly have been applied after the fact (the estate idea is plausible)...my mind was always imagining little Scotty stamping away on his cards like a little literary mad man.

Thanks again...this Obak sure got my head spinning about the FSF collection and how in the heck a PCL card got into it.

Brian

[Danny Smith]

Is there a faded stamp under the "f" on the obak? Any idea what it is?

This kind of post is what makes this board fun. Regardless of the number of responses. The many mysteries and intricacies of these old cards is what makes the hobby exciting.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Danny Smith

Is there a faded stamp under the "f" on the obak? Any idea what it is?

This kind of post is what makes this board fun. Regardless of the number of responses. The many mysteries and intricacies of these old cards is what makes the hobby exciting.

I see that too. Looks like "84" to me. And I believe I've seen that one before, also on a T206.

[ullmandds]

many obaks have a # stamped on them...many believe this came from the factory perhaps...not likely this type of stamp was also seen on a t206...in my opinion.

[darwinbulldog]

That's probably right. I just figured it was on a T206 because I hardly ever look at Obaks.

[brianp-beme]

Like Peter mentioned the purple stamps are indeed very common on Obaks.

Any more ideas, thoughts, theories about the F.Scott Obak? Thanks so far for the input.

Brian

[darwinbulldog]

I'm curious if anyone has seen stamps with other letters in the same font. If there are similar Gs and Cs and Ss and Ws out there that suggests maybe the F stamp wasn't unique to one collector (Fitzgerald or otherwise). But if we only see Fs in this font, that makes it likely they were all either done by the same stamp/person or that any that weren't were attempts to copy to original stamp.

[brianp-beme]

Thought I would repost this thread from a couple years ago, as it might renew some interesting discussion on this topic. Also I wanted to celebrate finally changing my avatar from a 1921 Zeenut which I do not own to this interesting, colorful card.

Brian

[Cozumeleno]

In addition to what RCM says, his Wikipedia page also says he actually lived there for a while beginning as early as 1927. Same theory as what RCM suggested but he may have been out there about a decade earlier. It also says that he began selling some of his work to movie studios in the 1920s, so he certainly could have been visiting there since the early 20s. That at least gets you a little closer to the production date of 1910.

[brianp-beme]

There have been a couple of other interesting threads concerning the 'F' stamp. Here is a link to one of them:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=fitzgerald

Brian

[Steve D]

I just did some research on Ancestry.com, and found that FSF's mother's maiden name was McQuillan, setting up a possible connection (I did not actually find one in a cursory search) with George McQuillan, a pitcher for the Phillies, Reds, Pirates and Indians, and who had two cards in the T206 set.

Also, according to Wikipedia, FSF's parents sent him to a prep school in Hackensack, NJ. He was there from 1911 to 1913, so that would have provided him a good opportunity to collect the cards while there.


Steve

[Jobu]

I have been looking for F stamps for a while now, and almost all of them are on T206. I have managed to find two additional Obaks, making three total, compared to 29 T206.

There is evidence that some T206 brands were pretty regional and I have seen stamps on EPDG, Sweet Cap, Old Mill, and Piedmont. Not sure where those were distributed. I know Obaks were distributed on the West Coast but I have no idea whether or not they may have been distributed nationally.

The possibilities I see for these belonging to F Scott are:

1) these brands were all distributed in Minnesota, which certainly could be possible if one is willing to assume that Obak was a specialty/novelty brand only stocked in small quantities, something which would be backed up by the 29:3 ratio I have found

2) F Scott collected T206 as a kid and picked up a handful of Obaks when he was in California in the 1920s and 1930s

3) He had a pen pal (not too likely)

4) I have never seen this one suggested (though I see it was suggested while I typed this novella -- talk about being beaten to the punch, SHEESH!!!) but I think it has some legs. After reading the Wikipedia link that Cozumeleno posted, it says that F Scott was sent to a prestigious boarding school, the Newman School in NJ, in 1911, when he was 15. If his parents sent him from halfway across the country, I would image that there were students there from the West Coast. These 14- and 15-year-old kids probably brought their cards with them and I am sure trades happened. This would also explain the 29:3 ratio as I would assume the kids from the West Coast were in the minority. It is also possible that he started collecting here if he took up smoking with his new classmates. The stamp makes sense too - living in a boarding school dorm with a bunch of kids would not be the safest place to keep a pile of unmarked cards.

I have never seen this stamp on anything but a T206 or Obak, which suggests that this was a kid's collection around 1909-1911. If a later collector acquired cards from across the country I would think that this stamp would be on a lot more issues than it is. Really, the boarding school theory perfectly explains the patterns that we have been trying to figure out for so long and not much else clearly works for the patterns outlined above. Of course, it still takes a leap of faith, but boy is it fun to think about.

Maybe tomorrow, if I am up to another novella, I will give a quick summary of the rest of the story...

[egbeachley]

Would it be so weird to consider that one of his relatives, an uncle perhaps, knew he collected the T206 cards. This uncle went on a trip to California, saw an Obak or two and thought "hey, those look like the cards my nephew collects" and brought a few home to give him?

Who doesn't pick up a present for younger relatives when on a trip?

[The Nasty Nati]

I want to believe it, but it's so far fetched. There's so many other possibilities for a stamp marked "F". Yes Fitzgerald collected during the T206 era, but so did tens of thousands of boys with the first or last name of "F"...not to mention the handful of adults that collected during that time, or years after.

[MULLINS5]

I have been studying Fitzgerald for many years and can tell you, for certain, that he collected t206 cards. I have seen this stamp in some of his childhood books and the outer flap of envelopes (where people use wax to seal it shut). He left his baseball cards behind when he went to college. Throughout his life he moved around a lot, but the cards stayed at home. He got them back when his mother died in the late '30s which must have renewed interest in collecting because he bought some as an adult late in his life, while in California. They did go up for auction and Matthew Bruccoli was the underbidder on the lot.

I can't tell you if the cards pictured are his or not, but the stamps I've seen which ARE his look eerily similar, with an outline around the letter (most noticeably on the bottom). Even though there is no definitive proof that a particular card came from his collection, I would still love to pick-up a couple to add to my Fitzgerald items.

Happy to assist in any way I can. Hope this is OK to post here, but my site is feel free to contact me if you have some for sale or have any questions about Fitz.

Patrick

[unamuzd1]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I have been studying Fitzgerald for many years and can tell you, for certain, that he collected t206 cards. I have seen this stamp in some of his childhood books and the outer flap of envelopes (where people use wax to seal it shut).
Patrick

I think that if you can provide pictures of the stamp in items with verifiable FSF provenance, there will be some very happy collectors, myself included. I've not seen anyone make that connection.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not doubting your word. Why would I? It looks like we're probably kin!

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Patrick for posting. It is the first time that I have heard a little more concrete info pertaining to these stamped cards. The fact that he used this stamp on childhood books and envelopes certainly makes it much more plausible that the stamps seen on cards are indeed legit.

Do you remember where you heard or read about the Fitzgerald and his T206 collection, and his later collecting?

Brian

[MULLINS5]

I first heard it from Matthew Bruccoli my freshman year of college in 2006. I am going to reach out to some of my sources at the F. Scott and Zelda Museum, as well as Sam and Eleanor Lanahan (F. Scott's grandchildren) to see if I can get some more information to share. Some of my college professors likely will be able to provide more info, too, perhaps some pictures of the stamp in his childhood books.

[MULLINS5]

While we're talking Fitzgerald, here's an album he bought for his daughter Scottie while in Paris. I sold this to the F. Scott and Zelda Museum a few years ago. A book that I still have (and I'll get pictures of it soon) is a copy of Crime and Punishment that Fitzgerald gave to Scottie while she was in college. At one time she wanted to be a writer, so her father wrote on the title page a page number to a passage on writing.

[MULLINS5]

...and a custom card I had made with Warner Baxter's auto. He is the first actor to play Jay Gatsby (1926 silent film).

[brianp-beme]

I looked up the Matthew Bruccoli that Patrick mentioned, and evidently he was the preeminent F. Scott Fitzgerald scholar, as well as having published and edited posthumous FSF writings. Even better, he was a noted Fitzgerald memorabilia collector who eventually bequeathed a collection worth 2 million of FSF material.

Great info, and thanks Patrick for really upping the volume in this conversation.

Brian

[MULLINS5]

Happy to help Brian, this is actually pretty exciting. Really looking forward to adding to the conversation.

[mrvster]

Thank God you ' re here!

we have been trying to get a definitive correlation for some time now.....I have been holding onto my ewing for years hoping for the truth

[tiger8mush]

This Tanny appeared to have been in both Fitz's and Mr. Carter's collections ...

[mrvster]

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by Danny Smith

Is there a faded stamp under the "f" on the obak? Any idea what it is?

This kind of post is what makes this board fun. Regardless of the number of responses. The many mysteries and intricacies of these old cards is what makes the hobby exciting.

Could be a stamp used but was running out of ink so who-ever did it restamped it. (IMO)

[mrvster]

seems totally plausible Wayne

[MULLINS5]

Anyone know what a decent price on one of these would run? I've heard of them selling in the $60 to $100 range.

[brianp-beme]

I have never gotten a real good handle on the pricing, as it seems most people, like myself, have just stumbled across their examples in the past. I do not ever remember seeing them at an auction house.

Brian

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

many obaks have a # stamped on them...many believe this came from the factory perhaps...not likely this type of stamp was also seen on a t206...in my opinion.

The purple numerical stamps are factory. They also appear on some Pet and Kopec cards.

[Jobu]

More than that unless you find an unrecognized F stamp out in the wild. I think a common in rougher shape might be $150ish and things go up from there based on the player and the condition. Prices might go up a little more if there is stronger evidence that these cards really were Fitzgerald's. Feel free to shoot me an email if you want to discuss further.

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Anyone know what a decent price on one of these would run? I've heard of them selling in the $60 to $100 range.

[MULLINS5]

Just an update on my research, I read Fitzgerald's handwritten ledger yesterday, hoping to find some solid info on t206s, to no avail. I did, however, find his September 1905 entry regarding his stamp collecting, which he described as "a passionate stamp collection" as well as his love for baseball (and other sports). He played several positions of baseball and his father was a fan as well. For instance, an August 1906 entry reads, "...father used to drink too much and then play baseball in the backyard." It's entirely possible his father was the one who supplied the cards from tobacco products and young Fitz collected them, as he did his stamps.

[mullinsm]

This is great stuff! But honestly, I'm just posting so I can be the third Mullins in this discussion...

[mrvster]

keep it coming.......please.............please..........pl ease find the "F" stamp somewhere!!! this has been killing me for over 10 years now!!

[tuckr1]

001.jpg

002.jpg


Here is one that I have possibly up for sale in the near future

Thanks

Tucker

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Just an update on my research, I read Fitzgerald's handwritten ledger yesterday, hoping to find some solid info on t206s, to no avail. I did, however, find his September 1905 entry regarding his stamp collecting, which he described as "a passionate stamp collection" as well as his love for baseball (and other sports). He played several positions of baseball and his father was a fan as well. For instance, an August 1906 entry reads, "...father used to drink too much and then play baseball in the backyard." It's entirely possible his father was the one who supplied the cards from tobacco products and young Fitz collected them, as he did his stamps.

I read thru his journal on line a few months back , I was hoping for a mention of a baseball card or a picture of the stamp. If he collected it seems he would mention the cards if he cared enough to stamp them.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I read thru his journal on line a few months back , I was hoping for a mention of a baseball card or a picture of the stamp. If he collected it seems he would mention the cards if he cared enough to stamp them.

I can see your logic, but it's important to know that Fitzgerald was an avid stamp collector throughout his entire life and shared this passion with his daughter Scottie. The journal was written much later in his life and the early entries are part of recollecting on things that happened decades prior when he was a boy. I don't necessarily think omitting a baseball collection means he didn't care about them or that it didn't happen. What the journal tells us is he indeed collected and that he and his father were fans of baseball.

[brianp-beme]

Mullins5--any progress yet with your contacts on your search for corroborating 'Fitzgerald stamp' evidence?

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Thought I would toss out a quarterly appeal...any progress on coming up with more definitive FSF identification?

Brian

[GregDR]

Really interested to see if any more info has been found on this!

[brianp-beme]

Unfortunately I have not heard anything new on the subject in a long time. If nothing else, it is one of the fancier back stamps out there.

Brian