This is the problem with grading...

[Peter_Spaeth]

If having a T206 Honus Wagner in an 8 holder that a high percentage of the hobby thinks is trimmed has not hurt PSA, then having an overgraded Art Shell in a 10 holder is certainly not going to hurt PSA. I don't think PSA is going to do anything, and if it does, it will simply point to its guarantee and say that if the owner has a question he can always have the card reviewed by the graders.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

So what's being done about this? Nothing is all I hear. Just shut your mouths and accept it is what I get out of this. Am I wrong here

So what is your answer? What do you propose? You want change, great. Lead the charge.

[barrysloate]

Peter- overgraded cards never ever get resubmitted. And undergraded cards always do, sometimes more than once. That's the grading game.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If having a T206 Honus Wagner in an 8 holder that a high percentage of the hobby thinks is trimmed has not hurt PSA, then having an overgraded Art Shell in a 10 holder is certainly not going to hurt PSA. I don't think PSA is going to do anything, and if it does, it will simply point to its guarantee and say that if the owner has a question he can always have the card reviewed by the graders.

Agreed. I think the auction house which is running the suspect cards probably has more to be concerned about in terms of bad publicity but they don't seem to mind much either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- overgraded cards never ever get resubmitted. And undergraded cards always do, sometimes more than once. That's the grading game.

I don't think that's true at all. Many people care about the card. I certainly have sent in cards I thought were overgraded, with some success.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think that's true at all. Many people care about the card. I certainly have sent in cards I thought were overgraded, with some success.

You sent them in to get a lower grade?

[barrysloate]

I would say the number of people looking to get a high grade card lowered is very small indeed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

You sent them in to get a lower grade?

No to get them to buy it back/compensate me.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No to get them to buy it back/compensate me.

Sounds interesting. Can you please expand on how that works? Like, if you buy a card graded a 6, think its overgraded cuz you see a hairline crease and send it to PSA, they agree it should be a 4, they give you the card back in a 4 holder along with $x reimbursement as compensation?

[glynparson]

they will not give refunds simply because you may have different standards. PSA will allow a 6 with hairline winkles or creases. i agree on cards that otherwise look mint i dont on cards with any wear or other problems

[Exhibitman]

It is impossible to determine how 'accurate' TPGs are because grading is inherently subjective, especially when counting the angels on the pinhead that differentiates between grades or between half-grades. It is all subjective.

I once tried to measure my cards for technical compliance with PSA standards to cherry pick the best possible grade. All I could think to do was to measure the cards as closely as possible. I put a metric ruler on 1980 Topps cards looking for evenness of borders and lack of tilt on the card fronts. I found one card that was almost perfectly centered [less than a millimeter variation in size of white borders side to side and top to bottom] and not tilted [less than a millimeter variation from one end of the colored band on the card to the other. Razor sharp, perfect printing, clean everywhere, no discernable flaws. It got a 9 from PSA. Why a 9 and not a 10? I have no idea. And just to spread the love around, I sent in this card to SGC and got a 98, again I have no idea why 98 and not 96 or why a 98 but not a 100:



There's no logic to it and no reasonable rational explanation. On that day, at that time, the card was a 10 but not a "10+" in the view of the grader(s) who looked at it.

As for people who wish to collect based on the subjective opinions of third parties, doesn't bother me as long as they respect the rights of others to not collect that way. When they start running down collectors who prefer their cards in slightly 'loved' condition for whatever reason, then we can talk about how they are being manipulated.

[lharri3600]

I don't believe that cards go through all those hands, no way and PSA can say what they want. I have proof that this just does not hapen these days.

Originally Posted by t206hound

According to the PSA grading process, it isn't "a" grader. It takes at least four graders all agreeing that it is a 10.

"Each grader receives the order and they will enter the order number into the computer. Once that is done, the contents of that order will appear on the PSA grading screen. Grader #1 will then enter his grade for the card in question (and for each card within the order until the order is completed if there is more than one card) and close the order on his screen. Once that is done and after redistribution of the order, Grader #2 will do the same – not knowing the opinion of the first grader on any of the cards within that order.

If their grades match in the computer, the card would then eventually reach a 3rd grader for verification of the grade. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, that card will be assigned to a 3rd grader whose opinion is required to break the tie, so to speak. As with the first example, the card would still be assigned to another grader for verification (a 4th grader in the process) to make sure the grade is accurate and consistent with our standards."

Then there is the verification step in which yet another person has to agree with the grade:

"After the cards have been sealed in the PSA holders, they are then sent to the Grading Verification stage. As mentioned earlier, this is where another grader will check the orders for accuracy and consistency in relation to PSA standards. If the cards appear to meet PSA's guidelines, the order is then sent on to the next step in the process. If any of the cards do not appear to meet the standards, the card is then removed from the holder and re-evaluated by our staff."

I know that they do a tremendous volume, but policy is policy and steps shouldn't be skipped even when cards are being evaluated at a convention. This probably goes doubly for cards graded a ten. Unless I'm reading it wrong, the process and policy states that for a ten to be assigned, encapsulated and returned to the submitter, at least four PSA graders have to agree that the card is a 10.

[lharri3600]

the thread is dead

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I posted this over on the SGC boards, but I thought I would post it here as well. I know it's not pre-war, but the era of the cards makes no difference to the point of the story.

I don't know if anybody's been keeping up with this thread on the CU boards, but here it is in a nutshell. A consigner sends Probstein123 an Art Shell RC graded a PSA 8 and it appears to sell on eBay for $47. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 10 and sells for $3150.02!





Another consigner sends Probstein123 a John Havlicek RC graded a PSA 7 and it appears to sell on eBay for $152.50. A week or so later, the SAME card is again on eBay by Probstein123, but this time the card is magically a PSA 8.5 and sells for $611.




Here's the thread:
http://forums.collectors.com/message...02&STARTPAGE=1

I'm not really going to address the ethical issues. Everyone already knows PSA is in bed with it's top submitters. My problem is how can the SAME CARD sell for $47 one week on eBay and $3150 the next week on eBay? This represents everything that is wrong with grading and this hobby. No way should the SAME CARD sell for 67X what it previously sold for just because of someone else's opinion. It's the SAME freaking card! Besides, don't people look at what they're buying? No way should that card have ever graded a 10.

Shame on PSA!! What a truly UNETHICAL company!!!

[lharri3600]

bump the thread is dead

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Sounds interesting. Can you please expand on how that works? Like, if you buy a card graded a 6, think its overgraded cuz you see a hairline crease and send it to PSA, they agree it should be a 4, they give you the card back in a 4 holder along with $x reimbursement as compensation?

When they have agreed with me they just kept the card and refunded my purchase price.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by lharri3600

bump the thread is dead

You bumped it 3 times in 4 minutes. More strategic bumps lead to better results, generally speaking. Bump it all you want....not a big deal to me. I think the folks that collect 10's (Gem Mint) get exactly what they want. No harm done to me. Live and let live.....(and I just got the "Live and Let Die" theme in my head.....hopefully it will go away or I will be hearing it all day )

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2hKzZss5Y

[bobbyw8469]

No to get them to buy it back/compensate me.

Peter, I did that with a 1953 Bowman Color Duke Snider PSA 7 that had a huge water stain on it. Half the card was stained. I probably coulda got it out, but I shouldn't have had to. I bought a PSA 7 with a huge stain on it. They bought it back and regraded it a PSA 5.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK2hKzZss5Y

Three minutes and eleven seconds well spent. Thanks Peter!!

[barrysloate]

Paul's best song post-Beatles.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Paul's best song post-Beatles.

Junior's Farm.

[smtjoy]

I think part of the problem is that it was not two cards that got upgraded but like 6-7 and all from the same ebay account pang21, the Shell was just the worst of the bunch but the 76 Ryan from a 9 to a 10 was just as bad imo. I can understand PSA making a mistake on a grade, it happens, but one person getting a bunch like that and on an in person service at the National makes me a little uneasy.

[nolemmings]

Paul's best song post-Beatles:

Maybe I'm amazed.

[nolemmings]

I think part of the problem is that it was not two cards that got upgraded but like 6-7 and all from the same ebay account pang21, the Shell was just the worst of the bunch but the 76 Ryan from a 9 to a 10 was just as bad imo. I can understand PSA making a mistake on a grade, it happens, but one person getting a bunch like that and on an in person service at the National makes me a little uneasy.

+1 a lot uneasy

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

+1 a lot uneasy

And (as I understand it) it wasn't an average Joe off the street that got these bumps, it was an ex-grader who maybe had an in

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

+1 a lot uneasy

I agree that one submitter getting very many bumps at the National makes me a bit suspicious, as it would any intelligent person. I am not saying anything was wrong, just that if I were management I would be looking into it just to make sure everything was on the up and up. There is rarely harm in verifying.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

And (as I understand it) it wasn't an average Joe off the street that got these bumps, it was an ex-grader who maybe had an in

Basis?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Paul's best song post-Beatles:

Maybe I'm amazed.

I always thought it was "Maybe I'm a Mays'd?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan are you sure those are the same card, I think I see some different markings.

[SetBuilder]

Grading shouldn't be done by humans, but by computers.

A computer can scan a card, plot 10,000 points of data, plot all the tobacco stains, plot the creases, paper loss, centering ratio, and come up with a numerical grade.

Accurate 100% of the time.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan are you sure those are the same card, I think I see some different markings.

Peter,

I can't say positively either way. This was originally posted on Post#130 by "vintagetoppsguy". It would help a lot if we could see the backs of both cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Corners look different to me, and the 9 has a prominent black speck just in from the border on the top left that does not appear to be there on the 8.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I can't say positively either way.

I can.

They are definitely the same card.

Here are the bottom right corners blown up.

PSA 8


PSA 9


Notice two things.

1.) How the bottom corners hook down on both cards.
2.) The two indentions on the right border in the same spots. You can only see so far up the right border because it's hidden by the slab on the 9, but you can see enough of it to know they are the same card.

Also look at the same corner ding on the bottom left border in the scans Dan posted above.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The top one looks like it has a slight rounding at the very tip of the corner that the bottom one doesn't have?

[glynparson]

there was a computer that graded cards, don't remember the company. I think they had more fakes in their holders than anyone. Percentage wise anyways. The computer would only grade as accurately as it was programmed. PSA needs to work on QC in my opinion. Also the individual that thinks Joe O should look at all the 10s? That is completely irrational and is not his job. You want to say Reza should, Id kind of agree on high dollar or vintage 10s, but this still is probably not feasible due to their high volume, the isn't SGC's submission totals PSA gets waaaay more cards to grade than SGC.

Originally Posted by glynparson

there was a computer that graded cards

does anyone remember who and how long ago? I have been working on this since 2005. Never heard of this before. It's gonna cost about 500k for the machine and software.

You can't ever replace the human eye though. The machine can't tell if there is good trimming or authenticity of a card. A 25x scan of the card for graphing like a finger print for identifying the card and any alterations. You never know if the card night get stolen and cracked then submitted later. This will detect if the card has been reported stolen or not. A 10x scan for grading reasons as well as a dimension scan with the factory/know variances for the particular cards. A backlight scan for alteration detection. Once the grade is given the slab will be barcoded for information log. If the card is determined altered it will also have a 2-3 digit code below the graded area for use to know what was done and where it was found. For crossover cards there will be and area on the back of the flip stating company and previous grade.

Someday I will work in the hobby but until then............

[cobblove]

it was a company called CTA.
Computer grading

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I can.

They are definitely the same card.

Here are the bottom right corners blown up.

PSA 8


PSA 9


Notice two things.

1.) How the bottom corners hook down on both cards.
2.) The two indentions on the right border in the same spots. You can only see so far up the right border because it's hidden by the slab on the 9, but you can see enough of it to know they are the same card.

Also look at the same corner ding on the bottom left border in the scans Dan posted above.

After studying the two scans, it's my opinion they are the same card. There is a blemish on the 9 on the top edge near the top left corner that isn't on the 8, but that could either be on the slab or even on the card that could have been acquired after the crack-out.

But as David pointed out, there are a lot of identical edge imperfections. Also, the words "Willie Mays - CF" are dead matches when observing the white snow on those letters on both scans.

What most disturbing is that, in my opinion, the corners have been improved. The bottom two corners on the 9 appear to be sharper than the 8. So with that said, subjectivity of assigning accurate grades isn't the only problem with TPG.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right edge looks like it has a rougher cut in the top card than the bottom card.

[SetBuilder]

I'm sure the optical algorithims can be modified to higher accuracy. As far as detecting if a card is authentic or not, I think that's what a grader's job should be. When a card is sent to PSA, an authenticator first determines if the card is indeed real, then scans the card into the grading computer for final analysis and numerical grading. In essence, the professional grader's job is now limited to determining if a card is real or not before a computer does the actual grading.

I also think computer grading can put a stop to resubmissions over and over for grade bumps. If a computer can scan a card and determine that it has been submitted before, it can reject that submission, or at the very least, not double count the pop report.

Somehow the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that grading companies want people to submit cards over and over, and may actually prefer inaccurate grades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Topps-W...item20ca96c5ec

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I'm sure the optical algorithims can be modified to higher accuracy. As far as detecting if a card is authentic or not, I think that's what a grader's job should be. When a card is sent to PSA, an authenticator first determines if the card is indeed real, then scans the card into the grading computer for final analysis and numerical grading. In essence, the professional grader's job is now limited to determining if a card is real or not before a computer does the actual grading.

I also think computer grading can put a stop to resubmissions over and over for grade bumps. If a computer can scan a card and determine that it has been submitted before, it can reject that submission, or at the very least, not double count the pop report.

Somehow the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that grading companies want people to submit cards over and over, and may actually prefer inaccurate grades.

I think I stated all that already in what I am working on.

[Copa7]

A very, very interesting thread.

I am grateful that it remains uncensored here on net54.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Topps-W...item20ca96c5ec

So someone bought it and consigned to another seller that quickly

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I think I stated all that already in what I am working on.

Are you a software developer or engineer?

I've pondered the idea of developing image processing software to look at centering, registration, corners, edges, and to look for creases, paper loss, fading, etc. It would be a monumental task, and would require custom code (or a template of some sort) for each type card.

[biggsdaddycool]

IMHO, the Mays cards are not the same. If you look at the photo the printing flaws in the picture vary from card to card.

[smtjoy]

Just my guess but if you look the same buyer purchased the PSA 8 from Probstein123 and then when it was upgraded to a PSA 9 and relisted they win the card again from Probstein123, sure looks like a consignor bidder/shill won his own card the second time so then they decide to consign it over to PWCC and they now know the ceiling bid of the two underbidders ($701.77 and $575) from the last auction. I wonder if they tried a second chance offer on the underbidder and they declined so just relist it with another consignor. This is getting old.

First sale won by - p***e

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1070wt_1038

Second sale after the upgrade from PSA to a 9, winning bidder is - p***e

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1050wt_1038

Now listed again by PWCC......

[Matthew H]

So it's ok for a consignor to buy his cards back from an auction???? This is not considered shilling as long as they pay the premium? I always assumed I was bidding against other potential buyers in an honest auction.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Are you a software developer or engineer?

I've pondered the idea of developing image processing software to look at centering, registration, corners, edges, and to look for creases, paper loss, fading, etc. It would be a monumental task, and would require custom code (or a template of some sort) for each type card.

Well I am an engineer but not software. That's my hangup and why it's gonna cost so much to develope.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Just my guess but if you look the same buyer purchased the PSA 8 from Probstein123 and then when it was upgraded to a PSA 9 and relisted they win the card again from Probstein123, sure looks like a consignor bidder/shill won his own card the second time so then they decide to consign it over to PWCC and they now know the ceiling bid of the two underbidders ($701.77 and $575) from the last auction. I wonder if they tried a second chance offer on the underbidder and they declined so just relist it with another consignor. This is getting old.

First sale won by - p***e

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1070wt_1038

Second sale after the upgrade from PSA to a 9, winning bidder is - p***e

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ht_1050wt_1038

Now listed again by PWCC......

According to the feedback given by the seller on Jun-07-12 22:25, the 8 was purchased by "kopitars_corner".