This is the problem with grading...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I don't understand Peter, auction houses are expected to monitor bids, why not on eBay?

I think he can at the very least check red flags, like this bright red one here.

I also think he should address the issue better, he could at least stop accepting consignments from this guy. I buy from Rick sometimes and I'd like to have the same piece of mind that I get from buying from AHs that I trust.

I thought we DON'T want auction houses monitoring bids, lest they know who has placed max bids. EDIT TO ADD If someone wants to buy back his own card, that's OK with me as long as he pays the premium. My only concern is a consignor placing a bid for the purpose of running someone up who he knows has placed a higher bid.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I honestly don't care if a seller shill bids me. . . . I as a buyer want the item and have set the price I will pay. I view my bid as a Buy-it-Now price. In other words, if the seller had this item with a Buy-it-Now price that was equal to my bid ... I would buy it immediately. If it was more, I wouldn't. So if I get an item at a price less than my max bid ... good for me. Lucky day. If I get an item for my max price ... cool. I got the item I wanted, and paid the amount I was willing to pay. (and not a penny more.) If someone shill bids me up to my max price ... well, that kind of sucks (because I would have been lucky and gotten a bargain), but at the end of the day I still get the item I wanted and for a price I was wiling to pay. And since I set the price, I always get the item for a price I like. So, I understand people get upset that they don't get the bargain they hoped for (and agree it is not right for seller's to do this) ... but I'd rather get shilled and get the item for my price, than not get the item. And everyone on here has my permission to bid me up to my maximum price. I won't complain! (If you outbid me and get the item I want however ......)

+1

I view shilling as a hidden reserve, without which certain items might not have been offered in the first place. When you eliminate shill bidding you end up with an ebay filled with outrageously priced BINs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought we DON'T want auction houses monitoring bids, lest they know who has placed max bids. EDIT TO ADD If someone wants to buy back his own card, that's OK with me as long as he pays the premium. My only concern is a consignor placing a bid for the purpose of running someone up who he knows has placed a higher bid.

I wasn't referring to bid amount, I thought they monitored whether or not a consignor is bidding on his own consignments... I didn't know that was acceptable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I wasn't referring to bid amount, I thought they monitored whether or not a consignor is bidding on his own consignments... I didn't know that was acceptable.

What's the point? If I really want to shill my own consignment but am blocked from bidding, I could have a friend do it. I would rather worry about altered and overgraded cards, myself.

[brob28]

I wonder what liability PSA could have on a negligence claim for "undergrading" the card the first time. I'm sure they have this all covered but hell, the first seller of this card must be pissed!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh no, time for another Paul vs. Jeff showdown.

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[howard38]

z

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I can cut to the end of that argument: "My name is Paul, and I will bid in an auction house that fraudulently shill bids me. I have never paid more for an item than I wanted to. I have $32 to my name."

[T206Collector]

I do think that shill bidding can artificially inflate the market for things that are sold in non-shilled markets, which can be problematic when trying to assess the value of something.

[calvindog]

Shill bidding is a crime. Whether or not anyone cares if they're the victim of a crime does not change the fact that it is a crime. And crimes in which victims do not lose money (for example if the shill bid is placed much lower than the item's final price) does not change the fact that a crime has been committed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bully!

[smtjoy]

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

[calvindog]

Peter, agreed!

[brob28]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

... when your shill bidding at $250 and the card sells at $3,150 ... I can't get too worked up. Yeah, you shill bid, but your bid was essentially irrelevant because two people went WAY over the top of you.

When you shill for $250, and the card sells for $251 ... that's a different story.

Cheers,
Patrick

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

"I have bought many, many cards from rick probstein over the past several years. I have never suspected anything pertaining some of these accusations that are being made on this thread. "

I have too and im sure many of Ricks auctions are fine because it really gets down to the consignor, if they dont shill/bid their own auctions then you will win a card at the right price, just like the seller of the 1973 Shell PSA 8 for $47. The problem was the winner Pang21 who won and then reconsigned and then shilled his own auctions. While Im sure Rick has tons of business and does not track every bid, he does manage to invoice all his consignors his fees on each of these 10k monthly auctions and now that it has been brought to his attention the shilling what does he plans to do about it. He does have control, once a consignor shills he can just no longer accept consignments and block them as a bidder.

I remember when PWCC was questioned that he allowed a single safety bid, he was on here and posted that at one time he had allowed it but that was no longer the case and he did not allow any shilling by consignors, I give him props for at least addressing the issue.

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by brob28

He was all set to shill, but soon after starting realized two fools with registry dreams were going to take care of that for him!

500% profit was enough for him, he didn't wanna be greedy.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

A card just went from $47 to 3k in a week with no doctoring involved.... Seems like a good issue to waste some time on... What if someones grandma bought the card, or it's some guy trying to leave something valueable to his family?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So he tells Pang21 to cut it out, or he blocks him. If Pang21 really wants to bump the auction he just uses another ID, or asks a friend to bid saying he will reimburse him if he wins. With so many issues plaguing the hobby, why waste time on this?

LOL are these mutually exclusive events? Can't Net 54 members do two things at once? If someone is caught selling trimmed cards can't he also have a friend sell his trimmed cards for him? I think calling out fraud regardless of the size of it is only a positive thing. You never know if law enforcement is reading these pages.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

A card just went from $47 to 3k in a week with no doctoring involved.... Seems like a good issue to waste some time on... What if someones grandma bought the card, or it's some guy trying to leave something valueable to his family?

Yeah, I specifically said above I was concerned about overgraded cards, I was referring to Pang21 supposedly bidding on his own consignments.

[peterose4hof]

Anyone who says they are ok with being shilled is an absolute fool.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To date, as far as I know, noone has been "caught" selling trimmed cards. All the ones I suspect are still on the loose. EDIT TO ADD I would have mentioned the T206 Wagner, but David Hall denied it.

You could be wrong.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just going by what I was told with regards to his grading status. So my apologies for that....... I would assume if he is accepting consignments or submissions he is being paid for his time.

My assumption was incorrect. It is now my understanding, from a very reliable source, that he doesn't get paid whatsoever from SGC, for anything he does for SGC. I stand corrected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You could be wrong.

So prove me wrong.

[calvindog]

Bet me $32 first.

[Exhibitman]

Friggin' lawyers...

[Ronnie73]

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

+1

[vintagetoppsguy]

Another significant bump. Someone sure is lucky...

[hammer]

ooooooooohhhh Rick where art thou ?!?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

Not true, eBay doesn't know who consigned items to Rick. If Rick sees a red flag, all he has to do is go look at the bid history.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, I specifically said above I was concerned about overgraded cards, I was referring to Pang21 supposedly bidding on his own consignments.

Fair enough, and you're right, the grading is a bigger issue.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I'm not ok with shill bidding but since I have a determined max bid in mind before I actually bid, it tends to not really effect me since I place my bid in the last second. One of two things happens, I either get a great deal since I would never overpay for a card or I am outbid in the last second in which case, the card sold for more than I was willing to pay. Ebay is the only one that can track possible shilling, not Rick. Rick could have an idea if its happening but as others have said, its just a matter of setting up another ebay user id. No matter how this all plays out, I still look forward to Ricks listings and will still continue to bid and buy from him.

So if you determine that a card is worth $1000 but a shill bidder puts in a bid at the last second on an $800 card for $999 -- and you win the card for $1000 with YOUR last second bid -- then you: a) did not overpay for the card and b) have not been "effect[ed]" by the shill bid? Without which would have resulted in you winning the card for $801?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Clearly there is visible paper loss on the lower left corner of the '61 Mays. The grading of these cards (Shell, Havlicek, Bauer, Ryan and now the Mays plus the other examples referenced on the CU Board) has now gone beyond the lame excuses of "subjectivity of grading", "grader error" or even "gross incompetence". The entire chain of custody needs to be investigated because people are getting ripped off.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Clearly there is visible paper loss on the lower left corner of the '61 Mays. The grading of these cards (Shell, Havlicek, Bauer, Ryan and now the Mays plus the other examples referenced on the CU Board) has now gone beyond the lame excuses of "subjectivity of grading", "grader error" or even "gross incompetence". The entire chain of custody needs to be investigated because people are getting ripped off.

That thread on CU is a great read.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So if you determine that a card is worth $1000 but a shill bidder puts in a bid at the last second on an $800 card for $999 -- and you win the card for $1000 with YOUR last second bid -- then you: a) did not overpay for the card and b) have not been "effect[ed]" by the shill bid? Without which would have resulted in you winning the card for $801?

I guess the question would be, was the $999 bid a shill bid or a legit bid. I would only bid what i'm completely comfortable paying. I also come up with my max bid by looking at what the same card has sold for in the past and I usually won't even pay that. I do agree there is a small window where a shill bid could affect me but with the number of other bidders, it would probably always be under a hundred dollars more likely less than fifty dollars. I never find myself saying, I paid too much for this card, after I won the auction. The other thing is, the shill bidder doesn't know what i'm willing to pay or even if i'm interested in bidding in the auction. I think the shill bidding would be a bigger problem if ebay had the 5 minute rule where the auction doesn't end until theres 5 minutes of no bids after it ends.

[HRBAKER]

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too. It's much easier to get to the place where the rationalization is, "I love collecting so much that I am willing to put up with all the sh!t this hobby throws at me." It's a big tent.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

another significant bump. Someone sure is lucky...

david- its so obvious to me that you have a hard on for this guy. If so, what's the deal? Where's your proof? By chance, you might not be just a tad jealous are you??

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Just because I am willing to pay $1000 for a card doesn't mean I should have to because of a bid that was placed with no intention of winning or keeping the card (in the case of a safety bid). Sometimes I actually like to think I got a good deal and pay less than I am willing to.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I guess the question would be, was the $999 bid a shill bid or a legit bid. I would only bid what i'm completely comfortable paying. I also come up with my max bid by looking at what the same card has sold for in the past and I usually won't even pay that. I do agree there is a small window where a shill bid could affect me but with the number of other bidders, it would probably always be under a hundred dollars more likely less than fifty dollars. I never find myself saying, I paid too much for this card, after I won the auction. The other thing is, the shill bidder doesn't know what i'm willing to pay or even if i'm interested in bidding in the auction. I think the shill bidding would be a bigger problem if ebay had the 5 minute rule where the auction doesn't end until theres 5 minutes of no bids after it ends.

I stated clearly that the $999 bid was made by a shill bidder. Let's agree that you're comfortable in paying $1000 but would have gotten the card at $801 if not for the shill bid. Are you impacted by the fraud?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If the past "sales" that you are basing the price you are willing to pay on are inflated by shill bids then it affects you in that way too. It's much easier to get to the place where the rationalization is, "I love collecting so much that I am willing to put up with all the sh!t this hobby throws at me." It's a big tent.

That is very true Jeff. I tend to have multiple sources from where I work up my numbers. I can usually see where a shill bid has happened because the sales numbers will all be around average or a steady rise but then theres sometimes a number that doesn't make sence and I usually leave that one out. Kinda like how some teachers would average your test scores in school, take out the highest and lowest grade and average the rest.

It still comes down to what your comfortable paying for a card. In an open floor type of auction, you could be shilled until you have hit what your willing to pay and then you say your out. With ebay, theres just more mystery to it.

[CMIZ5290]

David- still waiting for the proof........Did the dog eat it?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I stated clearly that the $999 bid was made by a shill bidder. Let's agree that you're comfortable in paying $1000 but would have gotten the card at $801 if not for the shill bid. Are you impacted by the fraud?

I guess I would be impacted by fraud but its only fraud if it can be proven and thats where we are with this post. I do understand the points your making but at the same time, if I was to place my $1000 bid at the last second and the current bid was $800. I wouldn't be suprised if I won at the $1000 bid and wouldn't automatically think I was shilled. Its more likely that I would lose the auction in real life because I tend to get outbid more than I win but when I win, I win good

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

David- still waiting for the proof........Did the dog eat it?

I'm still waiting on you to pull your head out of the sand. It must be burried pretty deep not to see what's going on here.

[CMIZ5290]

Sooooo. What's going on here???

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Sooooo. What's going on here???

What's going on is that Probstein sells cards that show back up in his auctions with magical bumps. Somebody sure is lucky with all those bumps.

Edited to add: What's also going on here is that he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What's going on is that Probstein sells cards that show back up in his auctions with magical bumps. Somebody sure is lucky with all those bumps.

Edited to add: What's also going on here is that he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

David -- magical bumps are not limited to Rick Probstein. Maybe there are some visible examples in his auctions, but they are EVERYWHERE, I assure you. They just might not be juxtaposed so neatly as to make them apparent. Buying, cracking out and resubmitting is prevalent throughout the hobby. I strongly suspect that in many instances, the cards are doctored in between. I used to follow a known card doctor's purchases on ebay. Always, it was centered 5s and 6s.

[teetwoohsix]

In casinos, the more money you spend, the better your "comps" get. Some of the bigger spenders (whales) can even get their own private parking space

Sincerely, Clayton

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

what's going on is that probstein sells cards that show back up in his auctions with magical bumps. Somebody sure is lucky with all those bumps.

Edited to add: What's also going on here is that he allows his consignors to shill their own auctions.

once again, proof??????? David, you are talking a big game, but nothing is coming forward.....