Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

[tedzan]

The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.



These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

The T215 cards were printed at ALC. The RED CROSS cards were shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted
into the Red Cross tobacco products. A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area. The "Pirate" cards were
shipped to Bristol, England to the W.D. & H.O. Willis Tobacco Co. and inserted in their PIRATE cigarette packs, which were exported to the Far
East.

Some uncertainty exists with respect to this T215-1 RED CROSS list. However, a 96-card "complete" set of the "PIRATE" Tobacco cards, has
been confirmed. By cross-referencing the RED CROSS set and the "PIRATE" set, a close match exists between the fronts of these two White-
Bordered, Brown-Captioned sets (with several exceptions in team identifications).


.


.


RED CROSS..... 96 subjects .................................................. ............... "PIRATE"..... 96 subjects (plus Byrne variation)

Ames (hands above head)............................................. ..........................Ames (hands above head)
Baker............................................. .................................................. ..Baker
Ball (Cleveland)....................................... ..............................................Ball
Bender (no trees)............................................ ......................................Bender
Bridwell (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (Chicago)......................................... ......................................M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis)............................................ ........................................Byrne (St Louis)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Byrne Pittsburg
Camnitz (arm at side)............................................. ................................Camnitz
Chance (yellow portrait)......................................... ................................Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (trophy).......................................... ...........................................Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)......................................... ....................................... NO PRINT.
Ed Collins (A's)............................................. ..........................................Ed Collins (A's)
Conroy (bat)............................................. ................................................. NO PRINT
Crandall (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Crandall (portrait-cap)
Crawford (bat)............................................. .........................................Crawford (bat)
Cree.............................................. .................................................. ...Cree
Davis (A's)............................................. .............................................Davis (A's)
Devore............................................ .................................................. ..Devore
Donlin (bat) Pittsburg .................................................. .........................Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)............................................. ............................................Doolan (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Doolan (fielding)
Dougherty (arm in air) .................................................. ...........................Dougherty (arm in air)
L. Doyle (bat)............................................. ............................................L. Doyle (bat)
L. Doyle (portrait)........................................ ............................................L. Doyle (portrait)
Dubuc............................................. .................................................. ...Dubuc
Elberfeld (fielding)........................................ .........................................Elberfeld (fielding)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky).............................................. ...............................Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ford.............................................. .................................................. ....Ford
Fromme............................................ .................................................. ..Fromme
Griffith (bat) Washington .................................................. .....................Griffith (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Groom
Hartsel Toledo .................................................. .....................................Hartsel
Herzog New York, NL .................................................. ...........................Herzog
Hoblitzel......................................... .................................................. ....Hoblitzell
Hofman............................................ .................................................. ..Hofman
Howard............................................ .................................................. ..Howard
Huggins (portrait) St Louis NL .................................................. ................Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands/mouth)............................................ ................................Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hummel............................................ .................................................. ..Hummel
Jennings (one hand)............................................. ...................................Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)............................................ ...................................Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Johnson (pitching)
Kelley............................................ .................................................. ......Kelley
Konetchy (glove low).............................................. .................................Konetchy (glove low)
Krause............................................ .................................................. ....Krause
Lajoie (bat)............................................. .................................................. Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)............................................. .............................................Lake (no ball)
Latham............................................ .................................................. ....... NO PRINT
Leifield (bat)............................................. .................................................. Leifield (bat)
Lord.............................................. .................................................. ..........Lord
Magee (bat)............................................. .................................................. Magee (bat)
Marquard (portrait)........................................ .........................................Marquard (portrait)
Marquard (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Marquard (pitching)
Mathewson (white cap).............................................. .................................. NO PRINT
Mathewson (dark cap).............................................. ................................Mathewson (dark cap)
McGinnity......................................... .................................................. ....McGinnity
McGraw (portrait-cap).............................................. ...............................McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)........................................... ...........................................McGraw (glove)
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)............................................... .......Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Harry McIntyre Chicago Nat'l .................................................. ..................... NO PRINT
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)......................................... .................................Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
NO PRINT .................................................. ...........................................Matty McIntyre Chicago AL
McLean............................................ .................................................. ...McLean
Merkle (throwing)........................................ ...........................................Merkle (throwing)
Meyers............................................ .................................................. ...Meyers
Miller............................................ .................................................. ......Miller
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Mitchell (Cinci)
Mowrey St Louis NL .................................................. ..............................Mowrey
Mullin(bat)....................................... .................................................. ....Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)............................................. ...........................................Murphy (bat)
Murray............................................ .................................................. ...Murray
Oakes St Louis NL .................................................. ...............................Oakes
Oldring (bat)............................................. ...........................................Oldring (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)............................................ ................................O'Leary (hands/knees)
Paskert........................................... .................................................. ..Paskert
Pelty (vertical)........................................ .............................................Pelty (vertical)
Purtell........................................... .................................................. ...Purtell
Quinn............................................. .................................................. ..Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)............................................ ...................................Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)........................................ ..........................................Rucker (throwing)
Schaefer (Washington)...................................... .....................................Schaefer
Schulte (back view)............................................. ..................................Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)........................................... ........................................Sheckard (glove)
Frank Smith Cincinnati .................................................. ........................Frank Smith Cincinnati
Speaker........................................... .................................................. .Speaker
Stahl (glove)........................................... .............................................Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat) St. Louis NL .................................................. ................Steinfeldt (bat)
Street............................................ .................................................. ..Street
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Summers
Sweeney (New York AL)............................................... ..........................Sweeney (New York AL)
Tannehill (Chicago AL)............................................... .............................Tannehill (Chicago)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Thomas
Tinker (bat)............................................. ............................................Tinker (bat)
Wagner (bat on right)............................................ .................................Wagner (bat on right)
Warhop............................................ .................................................. .Warhop
Wheat............................................. .................................................. ..Wheat
Doc White (pitching)........................................ ........................................... NO PRINT
Willetts.......................................... .................................................. ....Willetts
Wilson............................................ .................................................. ....Wilson
Wiltse (portrait-cap).............................................. .................................Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (pitching)........................................ ...........................................Wiltse (pitching)
Cy Young (glove)........................................... ............................................ NO PRINT


TRADES....circa 1909 - Spring 1912 that are reflected on these T215-1 cards.

Bobby Byrne.................from St Louis NL to Pittsburg on Aug 19, 1909
Mike Donlin...................from Boston NL to Pittsburg on February 17, 1912
Clark Griffith.................signed a contract to manage Washington in Oct 1911
Topsy Hartsel...............signed by Toledo (A A) in the Fall of 1911
Buck Herzog.................from Boston NL to New York NL on July 22, 1911
Miller Huggins (port).......from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Harry McIntyre..............from Brooklyn to Chicago NL on April 13, 1910
Matty McIntyre.............from Detroit to Chicago AL on Jan 12, 1911
Mike Mowrey.................from Cinci to St Louis NL on August 22, 1909
Rebel Oakes..................from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Frank Smith..................from Boston AL to Cinci on May 11, 1911
Harry Steinfeldt............1912 Spring training tryout with St Louis NL


The RED CROSS checklist is still a work in progress; therefore, I would appreciate any updates to it. Especially, I am looking for more team
changes....that are different from the original T206 captions.

Also, please continue to post your RED CROSS (and "PIRATE") cards here......or, tell us about them. This would especially be appreciated in
trying to get a better understanding of the cards in the RED CROSS set.


TED Z

[Seiklis]

Good list. From the checklists I have, Harry Krause's T215-1 is the Phil. Athletics and his T215-2 is Cleveland Naps.

Don't have it of course, don't even have a picture of it yet, one of my dream cards. Though I am curious if the list I have is correct on him

[Abravefan11]

I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.

[camlov2]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.

Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?

I have no personal experience with this set but enjoy reading threads like this where info is shared. Hope you can build on what is already here.

[tedzan]

If Mr Cathy didn't post it....he does not like it. It's simply his mentality. He has resorted to this type of criticism several times before.
So, just ignore his remarks.

The "PIRATE" list of 97 cards, I have gleaned from several sources. I think it is very accurate. However, the RED CROSS list needs to
be updated....as the current cataloging of these 96 cards is not completely correct.
Therefore, my reason for posting this thread; besides, being informative.

My research (so far) indicates 10 subjects in the RED CROSS set have team changes from their T206 counterparts. There are more
team changes forthcoming, but they have not yet been confirmed.

Furthermore, the list of subjects in this 96-card set is not completely confirmed; and, may require changes.

Let's hope this proves to be a meaningful exercise.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by camlov2

Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?

Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.

Tim, there is definitely interest in what you have to say. These are two sets that are tough for some of us to get a handle on, so anything you, Ted or anyone else has to add is going to be interesting to us.

I have some questions about what Ted posted, but I'll wait to see what you add.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.

These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

TED Z

Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?

Scott

I formatted these two lists in parallel in order to facilitate comparing the subjects by simply scanning across the page. I can understand, though, what you are saying
that this may be somewhat confusing.

"96" means subjects....as, the sheet size could be any multiple of 12 cards (i.e., 36 cards, 48 cards, 60 cards, 72 cards, 96 cards, etc.).


TED Z

[atx840]

Great card Pete!

[ullmandds]

thanks guys!

Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?

Yes. Pittsburgh.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Chance (yellow portrait)
TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted – I took a look and here is where I see your T215-1 Red Cross checklist and the one I posted don’t jibe.

Not on your list/On mine
Bender (w/ Trees)
Doolan (Fielding)
Leach
Manning
Smithier
Street (Portrait/Catching)*
Tinker (Bat On/Off)*

*You have one Street and one Tinker on your list without identifying the pose. Each have two poses in the T215-1 set according to the list I posted.


On your list/Not on mine
M. Brown (Chicago)
Dubuc
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell

[tedzan]

Tim

OK, I was away.
Now, as I have stated in my initial post here, I expected some differences in my RED CROSS list, since it was an old one.
If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.

Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........

M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis NL) .... ?
Dubuc
Evans
Groom
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Chicago AL)
McLean
Mitchell
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell
Summers
Thomas

Thank you for sharing your RED CROSS list with us. We still have 4 subjects that have to be confirmed.


TED Z

[Runscott]

This is great stuff. It is especially cool to see both of you guys (Tim and Ted) sharing your information in this thread and slowly coming to a consensus. Keep it up.

[Abravefan11]

Ted - I have a couple of points to make about your last post and I will separate them to try and avoid any confusion.

Originally Posted by tedzan

If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.

I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that the checklist for the Red Cross set would be complete at 96 subjects. According to the back of the cards the set was "100 Designs." There is no proof yet that all 100 were or were not printed, but with several previously unknown subjects being discovered in recent years, more are certainly a possibility.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........

In this quote you're drawing conclusions about the Red Cross set based on information we know about the Pirate set. Due to the many differences in the sets and how I think they were printed, I wouldn't assume that one checklist would have anything to do with the other.

Lastly, like the Red Cross set, new confirmations of Pirate cards have been discovered in the not-so-distant past. So for now we can't be certain that the Pirate checklist is complete at 96 or 97.

[RCMcKenzie]

The lists that I am familiar with show 90 known examples. All of the ones Tim has up there except for a second Doolan and the Manning. I guess the Doolan and Manning are recent discoveries. I always have assumed the set has 100 designs like it says on the card.