If I were SGC, I would BUY this fake and get it off the market!

[danmckee]

HOW EMBARRASSING!

The so-called experts graded this obvious FAKE as real and leave it on the market. What a joke!

3rd party grading is very sad and so are the people that pay the premiums for it! I feel very sorry for all of you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/390385563484...84.m1423.l2649

[FrankWakefield]

True. +1

[slidekellyslide]

Obviously SGC doesn't read this forum or they would have removed that card from the hobby two weeks ago when it was first posted here.

Any updates on the 1970s postcards they are slabbing as 1930s?

[danmckee]

Yea I have an update on the reprint post cards graded by SGC. They are still in SGC slabs being traded as real.

What a joke!

3rd party grading.

COMICAL

[jbsports33]

Not sure if they look on this site much anymore! but they should do something about the reprints on the market that are in thier holders

Jimmy

[Leon]

I don't know if any of them read this board anymore. I will give them a shout tomorrow and chat with them as they do advertiser and I like the guys in general. This card shouldn't be in one of their holders, or anyone's, unless labeled a reprint.

[danmckee]

I appreciate your stance Leon but you can have them. After I had to bust out close to half of my submission that was horribly undergraded, just to watch them slab fakes as real, I am done with them.

Those T205s I submitted were from an original owner family with sharp corners and practically untouched and they gave me 4's.

SGC SUCKS!

I think they have borderline collapsed into the new GAI of grading.

I say they are out of business in 2 years unless there are drastic changes.
Dan

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know if any of them read this board anymore. I will give them a shout tomorrow and chat with them as they do advertiser and I like the guys in general. This card shouldn't be in one of their holders, or anyone's, unless labeled a reprint.

Leon, I know Earl reads them, he posted something like 2weeks ago in the memorabilia B/S/T about their JSA mass submission, so he is still around here.

[wonkaticket]

For the record I still like SGC and really like Scott and Bob (Howdy Scott & Bob). They are still my company of choice for what little grading I do. But what do I know I’m a chump hack of a collector anyways with America’s Worst Want List.

I can see why Danny is a bit upset...I have to chuckle a bit but this is pretty rough if you’re him....


Graded/Cracked sold raw.....

Re-Graded/Bumped big time...

Before anybody says it’s not the same card yes it is I not only picked them up from SGC for Dan but went thru them and have the SGC slip. Ouch Danno!
Before anybody says it’s not the same holder or card yes it is.

I not only picked them up from SGC for Dan but went thru them and have the SGC slip etc. Dan I spent about 5 hours at his kitchen table going thru about 200+ OJ’s and many I insisted on taking back up for second looks.

Cheers,

John

[bobbyw8469]

I don't put much stock in SGC grading anymore as well. Pity, as competition is a good thing amongst graders.

[yardboy]

Take a read if you dare. Grand ol Ebay gets exposed in many articles here.

http://www.autographalert.com

It's a real education for you ebay and psa lovers.

[danmckee]

Jim Rivera saw my Brunswick T205's. They were removed from packs in 1911 and put away. No creases, sharp corners and I got hammered.

I am sure I got hammered on the OJ's and the T205's because I bash grading.

We are all human I guess.

Thanks for posting the OJ labels John. I was forced to sell that card raw but at least my bidder received a fair grade.

Dan

[cfc1909]

I did get a good look at the Brunswick 205s raw and after they were graded and was shocked to see ex plus cards in 4 holders. The Brunswick Cy Yuong 205 graded PSA 7.5 and I think it could have been in a 8 holder and there would have not been a complaint.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by danmckee

3rd party grading is very sad and so are the people that pay the premiums for it! I feel very sorry for all of you.

I understand your beef with SGC given your recent grading experience, but maybe you just don't know how to grade cards. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Dan, but maybe you just don't have the eye for it. Some people don't and that's not a knock on you or them, it's just a fact.

I've heard you complain about their grading in several threads now, but looking at your own cards for sale it's pretty obvious that you miss things. Here's an example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-To...item56474c683b

In that listing, you claim that the card has "NO (captialized) creases!" I can see a crease on the bottom right side running horizontally through the "D" in Cobb's uniform. I can also see it on the back as well.

Again, not knocking you, but if you missed this crease then perhaps you missed others in you SGC submission? I can see that crease through my computer screen, so you should definitely see it with the card in hand. Don't feel sorry for me for grading cards. Feel sorry for yourself when somebody buys that card thinkintg it has no creases and negs you because it DOES.

[Leon]

I just spoke to SGC...That originally posted game card has been removed from ebay and SGC said it was a long ago mistake. They acknowledged it was a mistake. I am not sure what else I can say except what I have said. Best regards

[wonkaticket]

David,

The fundamental difference nobody is paying Dan $5-50 bucks a whack for his opinion. The fact is that grading was designed to get rid of the uncertainty of grading amongst a population.

Meaning in the old days there was learning curve when you bought cards. Some folks EX was VG at best others VG was EX etc. Heck I remember when I bought my first few cards from the Fritsch catalog described as EX they had creases and paper loss on some. LOL

That was the problem. The good in theory business idea was to have a company take the guess work out of the buying and grading process thus leveling the field. Like I said a great theory but it will ever work because graders are people too. Meaning they will screw up, one guys Friday afternoon EX is another graders Monday morning VG.

Inconsistency and graded fakes are in direct contrast with the entire business theory of why grading popped its head up in the first place. If we still have grades all over the place, trimmed cards in graded holders along with fake cards then one has to ask the question what value is being brought.

That is what Dan is trying to say here IMO.

I just like the holders they could label every card AUTH or AUTH-T for trimmed or AUTH-A for altered and that would be ok with me.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Yes Dan missed the wrinkle on the right...heck it's even my old card LOL.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

P.S. Yes Dan missed the wrinkle on the right...heck it's even my old card LOL.

Yeah John and Dan, but still a GORGEOUS card nonetheless!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

John

I agree with everything you said except the first sentence. You are right, nobody is paying Dan $5-50 for his opinion, they're paying him $1600. His opinion is that the card doesn't have any creases, when the fact is that it does.

He missed a crease. It's not a big deal. We all do sometimes. I believe him to be an honest person. I don't think he's intentionally trying to mislead anybody and he'll probably fix the listing once he reads this. He obviously just overlooked it.

All I am saying is that if he missed a crease that obvious on the Cobb card, who is to say that he didn't miss others on the cards he submitted to SGC? I just don't like the way he comes on here and insults those of us that do send cards to SGC by saying he feels sorry for us.

Regards,

David

Edited to add: If he has a beef with SGC and wants to state it publically on this board, then that is his right. But when he starts insulting those of us that do send cards to SGC by telling us he feels sorry for us, then he's crossed the line (with me at least).

[wonkaticket]

David,

No excuses here....you also may not be aware that sometimes Dan's dad does a lot of the listings. Mr. McKee is one of my fav people in the hobby isn't a spring chicken anymore. Although you wouldn't be able to tell him that!

David that’s sort of the whole point I was trying to make. Say Dan did see the crease and says to him that card is EX then you know Dan is an over grader not unlike Fritsch was back in the day. So you sort of keep a running tally of how folks grade and take that into consideration when you do business with Dan or others. This exact process is what got complex and what the grading companies were in theory invented to get rid of.

The problem is it’s just as subjective now as it has ever been. Then toss in the fact that there is even more upside for high grades compared to the old days and there is even more trimming and slimy stuff going on.

Like I said great in theory but grading companies have far from delivered or protected us from ourselves to date. They have also fallen way short of the utopia that was to come from having 3rd parties involved. If anything it’s added an entire new facet of complexity to the hobby not simplified it.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Dan buy your pop some new glasses will ya you cheap bastard.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

John

I agree with everything you said except the first sentence. You are right, nobody is paying Dan $5-50 for his opinion, they're paying him $1600. His opinion is that the card doesn't have any creases, when the fact is that it does.

He missed a crease. It's not a big deal. We all do sometimes. I believe him to be an honest person. I don't think he's intentionally trying to mislead anybody and he'll probably fix the listing once he reads this. He obviously just overlooked it.

All I am saying is that if he missed a crease that obvious on the Cobb card, who is to say that he didn't miss others on the cards he submitted to SGC? I just don't like the way he comes on here and insults those of us that do send cards to SGC by saying he feels sorry for us.

Regards,

David

Edited to add: If he has a beef with SGC and wants to state it publically on this board, then that is his right. But when he starts insulting those of us that do send cards to SGC by telling us he feels sorry for us, then he's crossed the line (with me at least).

Good post DJ. I think where grading as a whole has really helped out is with the advent of the internet and buying cards by scans and pics. In the "old days" a guy would be able to see and touch it at a show, or he'd have to trust a dealer's assesment and buy by mail, which as John xperienced, was somewhat of a crapshoot. All in all, the top three tpgs are pretty consistent, if I'm buying an ex5, I have a good idea what I'm gonna get as opposed to a 2 or 3. Its pretty rare to see a 2 or 3 in a 5 slab. I know there are examples of that, but overall few compared to the ones they get right.

[E93]

I have not noticed a drop in grading quality at SGC. I think Scott and others are still doing a fantastic job.

For the record, about half of my graded cards are in SGC holders and about half in PSA. Probably 80% of my vintage cards are raw.
JimB

[vintagetoppsguy]

John,

All that may be so, but one thing I know for sure is that his dad didn't make the statement, "I feel very sorry for all of you (that use a TPG)." He did. One can sugarcoat it however they want to, but that is an insult to those of us that use TPGs.

In other words it would be like me saying, "T206s suck. I feel sorry for those of you that collect them." If I said that I would be roasted...and rightfully so.

David

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Ease

Good post DJ. I think where grading as a whole has really helped out is with the advent of the internet and buying cards by scans and pics. In the "old days" a guy would be able to see and touch it at a show, or he'd have to trust a dealer's assesment and buy by mail, which as John xperienced, was somewhat of a crapshoot. All in all, the top three tpgs are pretty consistent, if I'm buying an ex5, I have a good idea what I'm gonna get as opposed to a 2 or 3. Its pretty rare to see a 2 or 3 in a 5 slab. I know there are examples of that, but overall few compared to the ones they get right.

If you bought the Huggins recent lot of EX5 SGC 60s (33) total, then you bought about 8 blatantly trimmed cards that are slabbed SGC 60. I personnally viewed this lot with another guy who eats, shits, and breathes graded cards. Paper cutter dog earred cards in 60 holders. I guess these are old mistakes as well?

David, yes that Cobb card shows a crease in that scan, I will correct the scan, the card is currently crease free as I state.

And yes, I can grade cards, I have been looking at them 42 years and have watched the grades change. How long have you been grading cards?

And of course, I always accept returns and if you will notice, i didn't assign a grade to the Cobb.

Jim Rivera saw the Brunswick find, I guess he can't grade cards either??

dan

[wonkaticket]

David, I agree Dan can come off gruff…hell he is gruff. Look past the curmudgeon and I think he has some valid points that’s all.

Cheers,

John

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

John,

All that may be so, but one thing I know for sure is that his dad didn't make the statement, "I feel very sorry for all of you (that use a TPG)." He did. One can sugarcoat it however they want to, but that is an insult to those of us that use TPGs.

In other words it would be like me saying, "T206s suck. I feel sorry for those of you that collect them." If I said that I would be roasted...and rightfully so.

David

No sugar coating needed, if you use TPG, I do feel sorry for you.

Learn to grade what you collect, and don't rely on people that put fakes and trimmed cards in slabs.

dan

[Ease]

I'm not sayin they don't screw up man, but all in all they are consistent. I won't tug SuperDan's cape any more...

[E93]

Originally Posted by danmckee

David, yes that Cobb card shows a crease in that scan, I will correct the scan, the card is currently crease free as I state.

WIth all due respect, is that not the card that is for sale? Or was the crease removed? Ought that not be disclosed if that is the case?
JimB

[danmckee]

crease has been removed, disclose it for what purpose? Submit it for grading.

[glchen]

David, I'd give it up. Dan's a good guy, and you have to have a bit of a thicker skin when you use TPG's. I still submit to PSA (the horrors!), and I have to look at Andrew's sig every time he posts, which currently is the following:

Maybe PSA stands for:
"Please Submit Again"
"Pretty Sh!tty Assesment"
"Pretty Stinkin Awful"
"Please Smoke Another"

You can say that insults those who submit to PSA, but then again if PSA had better quality control, you can't say some of these comments aren't deserved.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by danmckee

crease has been removed, disclose it for what purpose? Submit it for grading.

[danmckee]

I will apologize to David if he was insulted. I shouldn't be insulting him. He has a right to collect anyway he chooses.

I do have to ask David - Vintage Topps? Isn't that an oxymoron? I thought all Topps cards are considered shiny stuff.

Just Kidding.


P.S. I also added sharp corners and better color to the green Cobb. I bought some new fancy solution off of ebay that I poured on it and it worked wonders!

Dan

[danmckee]

I always called PSA

Pathetically
Sad
Authenticators

but you had some good ones!


I think we had a thread on soaking and crease removal sometime ago.

If someone could include a link to that here, that would be great.


Some approve, some don't

Bottom line is soaking and rolling creases has gone on since the 1960s.

Back the we did that strictly for appearance sake.

Now I realize that is taboo for some of you.

So I guess it would be better for you gents to buy graded cards, that way you at least know they haven't had creases rolled out.

Have a nice weekend everyone!

And again, my apologizes to David, my intention was not to insult him.

Dan Mckee

[ChiefBenderForever]

This is so confusing, so you pressed the Cobb and removed the crease but used the old scan ?

[danmckee]

I think so Johnny, I have to get home and pull it out. I am fairly certain it is crease free.

But heck, I may have put another crease in it while working on it.

Don't buy it, it may be a scam from a terrible seller

Dan

[4815162342]

This thread is starting to go nuts like this one on the postwar BST: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146858

[bosoxfan]

How did you remove the card? The holder looks intact.

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

For the record I still like SGC and really like Scott and Bob (Howdy Scott & Bob). They are still my company of choice for what little grading I do. But what do I know I’m a chump hack of a collector anyways with America’s Worst Want List.

I can see why Danny is a bit upset...I have to chuckle a bit but this is pretty rough if you’re him....


Graded/Cracked sold raw.....

Re-Graded/Bumped big time...

Before anybody says it’s not the same card yes it is I not only picked them up from SGC for Dan but went thru them and have the SGC slip. Ouch Danno!
Before anybody says it’s not the same holder or card yes it is.

I not only picked them up from SGC for Dan but went thru them and have the SGC slip etc. Dan I spent about 5 hours at his kitchen table going thru about 200+ OJ’s and many I insisted on taking back up for second looks.

Cheers,

John

[jbsports33]

Leon,

Thanks for the update; I know if you try to contact SGC by phone you get a better response as well. I do agree with some on the board that SGC does need to handle Customer Service a bit better, but overall they handle things well and the grading and holders are not the issue most of the time. This card may just been something that was floating around for awhile as said. I really would like to see how SGC handles the next year after the changes they made the last few years with their staff.

Jimmy

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I always called PSA

Pathetically
Sad
Authenticators

but you had some good ones!


I think we had a thread on soaking and crease removal sometime ago.

If someone could include a link to that here, that would be great.


Some approve, some don't

Bottom line is soaking and rolling creases has gone on since the 1960s.

Back the we did that strictly for appearance sake.

Now I realize that is taboo for some of you.

So I guess it would be better for you gents to buy graded cards, that way you at least know they haven't had creases rolled out.

Have a nice weekend everyone!

And again, my apologizes to David, my intention was not to insult him.

Dan Mckee

I think there was a T206 Wagner graded Nm-Mt by PSA that was trimmed

[Exhibitman]

PSA = Prejudicially Skewed Assessments
SGC = Slippery Gasket Cardholders
BVG = Barely Viable Grader
GAI = Gone And Incompetent

[jalex]

I like SGC only because my kids can handle them without me freaking out and I think they look nice, but I did send in my T206 Summers and it came back ungraded miscut, I sent it back two months later and it got an 80... PS- I sent it back because I measured it left and right, up and down and can say with some certainty that it is NOT miscut nor trimmed, it's not short at all. From no grade to 80 is a huge jump...

Jim

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by jalex

I like SGC only because my kids can handle them without me freaking out and I think they look nice, but I did send in my T206 Summers and it came back ungraded miscut, I sent it back two months later and it got an 80... PS- I sent it back because I measured it left and right, up and down and can say with some certainty that it is NOT miscut nor trimmed, it's not short at all. From no grade to 80 is a huge jump...

Jim

Post a scan?

[jalex]

I will tonight... If I can figure it out.

Jim

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jalex

I like SGC only because my kids can handle them without me freaking out and I think they look nice, but I did send in my T206 Summers and it came back ungraded miscut, I sent it back two months later and it got an 80... PS- I sent it back because I measured it left and right, up and down and can say with some certainty that it is NOT miscut nor trimmed, it's not short at all. From no grade to 80 is a huge jump...

Jim

I had the same xperience years ago with SGC--went from 'trimmed' to an 84. The card was great, BTW, and not at all tampered with.

[jalex]

Here it is...

I am not ragging on SGC for this by the way... I have no dog in the hunt. I think the card was a millimeter short of standard, maybe, and whoever graded it originally was being overly cautious. It measures a mm or so shorter than some of my sgc graded cards, but it also measures a couple of mm taller than others. At some point it's just subjective. i think it's a beauty. I bought it raw for 30 bucks or so and only had it slabbed for the reasons I mentioned before. I only sent it back because I thought they missed it on this one, but they have pretty much nailed it on my 20 other t206... Anyway, hope the scans show...

Jim



summers1 001.jpg

summers1back 001.jpg

labelsgc 001.jpg

[bobbyw8469]

From no grade to 80 is a huge jump...

Dang!! That makes me wish I had sent in my Gehrig again that they said 'measures short'.....

[danmckee]

You cannot tell if a T206 is trimmed or not by measuring. They come in several different sizes. My set was put together in the 1970s and I can tell you there are about 20 different sizes of not trimmed cards in it.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

PSA = Prejudicially Skewed Assessments
SGC = Slippery Gasket Cardholders
BVG = Barely Viable Grader
GAI = Gone And Incompetent

That GAI one is just funny Adam!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Dang!! That makes me wish I had sent in my Gehrig again that they said 'measures short'.....

ALWAYS SUBMIT MULTIPLE TIMES!!!!!

ALWAYS!!!!

Are you hearing anything I am saying about grading??

[jalex]

Well, yeah, that was kind of my point. I have only 20ish T206s and they vary, which is why I was pretty confident about the Summers. I don't think there is a single t206 I own that measures exactly the same. I think the graders get a bit caught up in the stats, a t206 should be this or that, etc... instead of just looking at them for what they are. These things weren't laser cut by a computer, they vary wildly, which is why I like em'...

Jim

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

David,

...I just like the holders they could label every card AUTH or AUTH-T for trimmed or AUTH-A for altered and that would be ok with me.

Cheers,

John

What John said, +1.
Val