American Caramel E121 series of 80 survey revisited

[brianp-beme]

I thought it was just about time to dig up and combine a couple of threads I had posted last year and got good response from all you fellow collectors. It involves both cards listed in the SCD for this E121 series of 80 set which I believe may not exist, and cards that are listed for this set that might only exist with the back (first line ends in 'eighty') variation.

After collecting these cards for a while and watching when they come up for sale, I am convinced that some of the cards listed in the catalogs for the E121 Series of 80 set are either incredibly tough to come by or non-existent. I have come up with a list of cards in this set that I have not personally seen, and in the previous postings by fellow collectors, was not able to cross off the list. I would appreciate hearing back, either here or by email, from collectors on any they might have or have positively seen for sale. Keep in mind that most of the cards listed below are variations, so all the noted information about the card needs to be exact.

Cards that possibly do not exist in the E121 series of 80 set:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Pat Shea (no quotation marks)
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)

The original list I created to verify the existence of certain E121 cards did not include any card that I only possessed an 'ends in Eighty' variation example. I thought I would list those cards now to see if any of you collectors out there can verify the existence of the normal back of each of the following listed below. My thinking is that we can verify some other tough, possibly 'ends in eighty' only cards. After previous input from collectors I have narrowed down the list to what is seen below, however I did add three cards to the list (Causey, Ryan and Earl Smith) because I realized I had left them off the original list and I suspect their existence in anything but the first line ends in 'eighty' variation.

E121 series of 80 cards that possibly are only available with first line ends in 'eighty' back variation:

Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
M.J. McNally
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Jack Quinn
John Rawlings
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith

Your assistance will be greatly appreciated!


Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, I am fairly sure that I owned a Pat Shea (no quotes) with a regular Series of 80 back in the past (I could be wrong though), also I have found a "Pat" Shea, and Jack Quinn with the Type 3 back as well.

Also, SCP just had a Frank Baker in their last auction and (surprise, surprise) he has a "ends in eighty" back. Also, I think there are quite a few more people that are only found with the tougher backs as well (George Ruth, Aaron Ward, Robert Roth, Roger PeckinPaugh(correct), William Fewster, and some others--all of which are NYAL and NYNL guys).

It has long been my theory that the "ends in eighty" series was produced later than the regular "eighty of the" series and included a huge number of new NY players that were about to play each other in the upcoming world series. Many of these "ends in eighty" players were then also featured in the Koesters set (with some notable additions) and some were then carried over to the series of 120.

-Rhett

[rhettyeakley]

Also, another tidbit I have recently uncovered is that the "ends in eighty" subset was apparently produced at the same time as the Gasslers Bread set. That set also has an extraordinary # of NY guys in it and many of those that are only found in the "ends in eighty" subset.

I knew there was a Frank Baker in the Gasslers set for some time but after seeing the E121 one in SCP it really confirmed that theory that I had. Also, I have seen "Phil" Douglas with the Gasslers back so I am pretty confident that a E121 "ends in eighty" of him will be found (a la the Baker card)

-Rhett

[ErikV]

Brian,

I think I have the Douglas card. While it's not a great
sample, you can clearly make out the quotes and the
"eighty" on the back. Hope this helps with you research.

ErikV

[t213]

Brian,

I have both versions of Pfeffer. The Brooklyn one has the "eighty of the" back and Cardinals has ends in "eighty" back.

Andy

[nolemmings]

don't know how this fits in, but for your research you can note that this Leader Theatre back Pat Shea lacks quotation marks:

[rhettyeakley]

Todd, the Leader Theatre cards correspond with the E121 Series of 120 as to their timeline (as do the Lou Gertenrich cards) so all the Shea cards shouln't have the quotes in those series.

BTW, thanks for shoving that card in my face again! I am still kicking myself for not going higher on that lot in H&S w/ that card and the M101-6 Hornsby! Also, I still need a Leader back so when you get sick of Mr. Shea he will feel more comfortable here w/ me!

[Brian Van Horn]

I don't mean to spin this thread in another direction, but can we confirm that the only three poses that are strictly related (as far as E121 80 and 120 series) to the first line ending in "eighty" are the following:

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, If you are talking about POSES ONLY then you can add Robert Roth w/ his arms outstretched to the list, also I have only seen the Jack Quinn with the 2 rarer E121 Series of 80 backs (the sample size of type 3 backs is too small at this point to say with 100% certainty that any your 3 or the Roth can't be found w/ that back as they may). Also, please note that all of these players are theoretically found w/ blank backs (W575-1) although I still have to confrim that "Rip" Collins can be found that way (although I suspect he can as I have personally seen all of the others).
-Rhett

[yomass]

I went to find a Cobb throwing facing front series of 80 card, as I had that one checked off from Lipset's list. Instead, I found that I simply had two variations of the same looking right throwing pose- Manager and Mgr. Both these have the "eighty of the" type 1 back, so there must be more than one printing with that back.

Is the Lipset Encyclopedia checklist the source for these catalogued cards that perhaps don't exist? In the case of the Cobb, the Mgr variation is not listed (unlike the Evers variations listed separately as #45 and 46 in his list). Perhaps it could just be a minor error that went unnoticed.

[yomass]

I have a Cecil Causey "eighty of the" back, but it is type 3, consistent with Rhett's theory.

[rondiamond]

I am 100% positive that there are NO Alex Gaston cards. I've been collecting this set for 20 years and have completed what should be a complete set and after 500 shows and a half dozen nationals...and after a dozen reply letters from the major dealers in this country...NO ONE has seen this supposed player for this cataloged set. PSA says they graded one, which was put up on Ebay recently but was a 1922 E121...not a 1921. I've tried several times to get PSA to change it's list of players for this set but they are too busy and don't care.
Thanks for bringing this question up.
Ron Diamond('ariev' 2nd highest and soon to be #1 1921 E121 80 set on the PSA registry)

[brianp-beme]

Hi Ron...thanks for bringing back this post. Maybe others can chime in about the various mysteries of this issue mentioned in this thread. Your point about the Alexander Gaston card is duly noted. I would be surprised if any of these were to pop up, considering how long you have looked.

Since you seem to have quite a nice collection of the E121 80 series cards, I would like you (or anyone else out there) to help us out with possibly narrowing down the 'Might not exist' list. Here is how it currently stands:

E121 80 series checklisted cards that might not exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (with position)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


Let us know if there are any of these out there, and if so, which type of back (type 1, 2, or 3) it has.


Thanks,

Brian

[rondiamond]

FIRST...is the 80 without variations? Then..
You are correct...I have never seen any of the cards which are on your list.
You are much more of a purist than I. And I thought I was serious about this
set! It was my first and still is my favorite(due to 20+ years of collecting).
Not sure how to handle PSA and SGC when they are too 'busy' to get things
straight....they say they use the major catalogs(for card investigation) but
no 'catalog' company has ever decided to grace my email page with any
explaination of their process for placing names on sets.

Good luck to all others(except when it concerns me completing this set)!!!

Best of health

Ron

[brianp-beme]

I thought I would update and consolidate some of the evolving E121-80 lists based upon recent finds and additions. Let us know if there any errors, omissions or additions. See Rhett's previous post on this thread (post # 14) for examples of the varieties of backs:

E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
"Pat" Shea (must have " ")
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder
Aaron Ward


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Harry Heilman
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Thanks of course to everyone and especially Rhett for most of this great info.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, here is an updated list of my non-Type 1 holdings as of right now, (the "NNO" below is just part of my spreadsheet so don't pay attention to that)...

1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Dave Bancroft (Leaping)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Geo. J. Burns
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Cecil Causey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Eddie Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Rip" Collins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Phil" Douglas
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Frisch
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Mike" Gonzalez
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Harry Harper
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Wm. C. Jacobson
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Hugh Jennings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO M. J. McNally
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Emil Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO R. Meusel
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO John Rawlings
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Roth
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Ed. Roush (C.F.)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Bill" Ryan
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Slim Sallee (No glove shows)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Robert Shawkey
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO "Pat" Shea
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Earl Smith
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Frank Snyder
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Milton Stock
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 2 (Eighty) NNO Aaron Ward
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jake Daubert
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Urban Faber (White Uniform)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO William Fewster
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO W. L. Gardner
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Alexander Gaston
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Harry Heilman
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Waite Hoyt
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Miller Huggins
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Elmer Miller
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Arthur Nehf
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO Jack Quinn
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO George Whitted
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 3 NNO "Pep" Young
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Walter Johnson (Hands chest)
1921 E121 American Caramel (80) -Type 4 NNO Ray Schalk (Batting)

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Rhett,

I have integrated your info on the Type 3 cards into its list, and have started a baby "Type 4 cards known to exist" list as well--personally I believe that these were not a real separate run, but more of a printing error.

Brian


E121 80 series checklisted cards (no matter what variation of back) that might NOT exist:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Ty Cobb (throwing, Face Front)
Alexander Gaston (no position)
Fred Schupp (not 'Ferd')
Tris Speaker (batting-small projection)


E121-80 cards only currently known with Type Two back (first line ends in 'eighty'):

Frank Baker (not J.Franklin Baker)
Cecil Causey
"Rip" Collins
"Phil" Douglas (must have quotation marks)
William Fewster
"Mike" Gonzalez
Harry Harper
Miller Huggins
M.J. McNally
Emil Meusel
R. Meusel
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinpaugh (correct spelling of last name)
Jack Quinn -- also seen with 'type 3' back
John Rawlings
Robert Roth
George Ruth (first name George)
Bill Ryan
"Slim" Sallee w/no ball
Robert Shawkey
Earl Smith
Frank Snyder


Known cards with Type 3 backs (fancy print on Lancaster and York line). This list is in its infancy...let us know what you have:

Dave Bancroft (leaping)
Eddie Collins
Jake Daubert
Charles Deal (light uni)
William Doak
Urban Faber (White Uniform)
William Fewster
Frank Frisch
W. L. Gardner
Alexander Gaston
Harry Heilman
Waite Hoyt
Miller Huggins
Joe Judge
Dick Kerr
Bill Killefer (correct spelling, with bat)
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Elmer Miller
Arthur Nehf
Jack Quinn
George Ruth (George on front)
Hank Severeid
"Pat" Shea
Oscar Vitt
Aaron Ward
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
"Pep" Young


Type 4 "Reversed Back with condensed first line" cards known to exist (example of this back on post 22):

Walter Johnson (hands at chest)
Joe Judge
Ray Schalk (batting)
George Sisler (throwing)

[old-baseball]

Brian / Rhett - Just want to make sure we're all talking the same language...

Type 4 - is the newly discovered (couple of months ago) reverse were the first line of printing has the tight spacing between the words. Type 1 (normal most common back) on the left and Type 4 (tighter spacing on first line plus in this case reversed) on the right.



What are we calling "reversed" back? Is it just "reversed" or Type 5? I think Brian is refering to it as Type 4 in his last post.

Anyway here's what I can offer:

I have a bunch of Type 2 cards - if you want me to identify them for you just let me know.

I have "Pat" Shea and Aaron Ward in both Type 2 and Type 3 in my collection.

Type 4 - tighter printing on first line
Sisler - Throwing (also reversed)

"Reversed" Backs
Bancroft (Batting)
Bush
Carey (Hands at Hips)
Daubert
May (no "S" at end)
Murphy
O'Neill
Pfeffer (Brooklyn)
Pipp
Toney (No Trees)
Veach (Arms Crossed)
Wingo