T206 Demmitt & O'Hara....are they 350-only Series cards ?

[tedzan]

No one questions that the St Louis variations of these 2 cards are extremely tough to find. However, there are
some that think that these 2 St Louis variations are 350/460 series subjects. While others of us feel quite sure
that these two were printed and issued along with the 208 cards in the 350-only series. We can speculate and
debate this all day long; however, I prefer to look at what the numbers tell us.

The following data is derived from two randomly sampled T206 surveys whose combined total is 22,000 cards.

Demmitt (St Louis) = 5 cards
O'Hara (St Louis) = 5 cards

The POLAR BEAR sampling in the 350-only series is......

638 PB cards/133 PB subjects = 4.8 average

The POLAR BEAR sampling in the 350/460 series is......

451 PB cards/61 PB subjects = 7.4 average

The fact that the number of Demmitt's and O'Hara's in this survey equal the average number of PB cards in the
350 series is proof of what many (including Lew Lipset) have said in the past.....that these 2 scarce variations
were equally printed and distributed in the initial PB launch.

It's my contention that there was only one press run when the 350-only series cards were printed with the PB
backs in the Spring of 1910. Furthermore, that American Litho. printed only 140 of the 208 subjects with the PB
backs. So,considering these factors and the obvious fact that the St Louis versions of Demmitt and O'Hara exist
only with the PB back explain why these 2 cards are super rare. A general "rule of thumb" why certain T206 sub-
jects are tough to find is a function of how few T-brand backs that they were printed with. For example......

Lundgren (Cubs) is found with only 3 backs

Elberfeld (portrait-Washington) is found with only 3 backs

Dahlen (Brooklyn) is found with only 4 backs






OK, I'd bet my house, my 2 barns and I will throw in my huge wood shed that Demmitt and O'Hara (St Lo) were
printed in the 350-only series.

Anyone care to differ ?



TED Z

[T206Collector]

For those of us who archive such threads, it is useful to have your post from 2007 on this topic as well:

Of Demmitt and O'Hara....St Louis Variations.
March 19 2007 at 8:47 PM
Ted Zanidakis (Login tedzan)

Here's my take on these two rare T206 variations. First, I will start with their brief BB careers.

.............Demmitt.............................. ......O'Hara
Major Lges.
1909.....NY Amer....123 games............NY NL......115 games
1910.....St L AL.......10 games............St L NL........9 games
Eastern Lge.
1910.....Montreal....130 games...........Toronto....122 games
1911.....Montreal....153 games...........Toronto....147 games
Major Lge.
1914-15 Chi AL.......155 games

Both players are featured 1st in the 350-only series (as NY players) with limited backs than most other
Subjects in this series. Demmitt can be found with P350, SC 350/30, Carolina Brt, EPDG, and Tolstoi.
O'Hara can be found with P350, SC 350/30, Sov 350, and Cycle 350. Note....no Polar Bear backs.

Then by mid 1910 when the ATC started designing the T206's for the POLAR BEAR chewing tobacco Co.,
both these guys had been traded to their respective St. Louis teams....of which they played only a very
few games and were sent down to the Minors. Therefore, the T206 designers saw no need to continue to
print them with any other T-brand as Major Lgers.

The Polar Bear exclusivity of these 2 scarce variations is simply just a matter of timing (and, not a mystery).
My guess is that there are probably some where between 300 - 400 of these two variations in circulation.

Subsequently, both Demmitt and O'Hara are printed in the 1912 Canadian Imperial Tob. Co. (C46) set.
O'Hara continues playing for Toronto (his hometown) till the end of the 1915 season.

Demmitt re-appears in the 1914 T-213 (Coupon Tob.) set. The T213 fronts must have been printed by
American Lithograph, as most of the fronts are the exact ones in the T206 set. Demmitt has 2 cards in
the T213 set. The one I've seen, depicts him in the St Louis uniform, but his team is Chicago American.
I've never seen the other Demmitt, which I have heard depicts him with a NY uniform.....this, I find very
strange.
Does anyone here have a scan of the T213 - NY version ?

Well, that's my theory on these two elusive T206 variations....anyone care to venture another story ?

[buymycards]

Hi guys, thank you for the interesting thread about two of my favorite cards.

Rick

[paul]

So, does that mean that if someone was inclined to complete a T206 Polar Bear set with all 350 backs, the O'Hara and Demitt would be no more challenging than any other card? (Except for the fact that they cost more).

[FrankWakefield]

No more challenging to locate, correct.

No more challenging to acquire, not correct.


If folks only collected T206 Polar Bear cards, and ignored all other T206s, then acquiring Demmitt and O'Hara wouldn't be special. But folks do collect other T206 cards. And generally, they ignore the backs. So if they're just chasing fronts, then they find way fewer Demmitt's and O'Hara's out there than other cards. So Demmitt and O'Hara ARE more challenging to acquire, and their cost reflects that.

Yea, you have it... "except for the cost"

[FrankWakefield]

................T206 Demmitt NY...............................T206 Demmitt StL............................T213 Demmitt Chi Amer....

[Matt]

Hey Ted - thanks for digging out the numbers. You've definitely shown that it's likely they were 350 only cards, but I've got one more question

Can you confirm that none of the the PB cards that we know are 350/460 cards showed up only 5 times in your sampling? If they all showed up at least 6 times and the O'Hara and Demitt showed up only 5 then I think you've proven it as best as you can statistically, but if some/several of the 350/460 PB cards appeared 5 times then the O'Hara and Demitt showing 5 times doesn't prove they are 350 only cards.

(BTW; it's not that I believe it to be a 350/460 card, just that I haven't yet seen conclusive proof it's a 350 only)

[ethicsprof]

My ole friend, Ted, I've love to win your house but you, as an engineer, know as well as I -- that in the amazingly elusive arena of the Monster-- there is no way to unequivocally verify your contention.
Still, I find your evidence very compelling and for me the best answer i've seen. But unequivocal verifiability breathes better in logic and epistemology
classes, and even has trouble 'breathing' there.

best,
barry

[buymycards]

Hi Ted,
If I read your numbers correctly, the numbers seem to indicated that Demmitt and O'Hara were printed in approximately equal quantities. I have been watching these cards for quite a while, and it seems that I see many more Demmitt's come up for sale, and the O'Hara's cost roughly 1 1/2 times as much as a similar grade Demmitt. Do you have any research on the Demmitt/O'Hara ratio's?

Thanks!


Rick

[tedzan]

Rick

Although every survey indicates that the availability of these two cards are the same, I agree with you that Demmitt
appears to be more available. My experience in collecting (or selling) these 2 cards tells me that Demmitt is somewhat
more available than O'Hara.

I like Frank Wakefield's explanation for this...."when BB player's Major League careers end, kids threw away their cards".

Demmitt returned to the Major Lges. after a stint with Montreal. Plus he was pictured on subsequent T-cards.

O'Hara's BB career ended with Toronto (Eastern Lge.).

Anyhow, that's my best answer. Perhaps, some one else here has a better explanation ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks for reprising my thread on this subject from 2 1/2 years ago. It provides some very worthwhile added info on Demmitt and O'Hara.

TED Z

[tedzan]

".....but I've got one more question
Can you confirm that none of the the PB cards that we know are 350/460 cards showed up only 5 times in your sampling? "

And, your contention......
"If they all showed up at least 6 times and the O'Hara and Demitt showed up only 5 then I think you've proven it as best as
you can statistically, but if some/several of the 350/460 PB cards appeared 5 times then the O'Hara and Demitt showing 5
times doesn't prove they are 350 only cards."


This argument of yours, Matt, is not a statistically valid one.

Incidently......
The range of the 350-only PB cards in these surveys was from 1 to 8.

The range of the 350/460 PB cards in these surveys was from 4 to 23.


Matt

Now, I have a very serious a question for you......

If these two St. Louis variations were printed in the 350/460 series, then why aren't they identified with their respective
Eastern League teams ?
Remember, the 350/460 subjects were not available until the Summer/Fall of 1910.






TED Z