Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

Been having a great email convo with Kyle regarding the WGN series of pennants that we date to 1950-52. Thought I’d share an observation. I’m suspecting that the same company was the “major” producer all during the 1940s. Speaking specifically about the pennants with: wide spine, soft thin tassels not close to edge, single stitch. There exist pennants in the series we know that have this construction.. See NYG and Cubs pennants below. (Cubs has tassels tucked behind.)

Now observe the script of ‘Wrigley Field’. Looks exactly like that on my 1944 Browns pennant. So I’m thinking this is the company behind all of these - the pennant wheel pic I found online. ... Kyle noticed that the Yankees pennant matches letter font to the 1950, 1951 ASG pennants. Anyway, I found this to be interesting!

[ooo-ribay]

I look forward to Greg’s Google photo albums, grouped by series.

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Been having a great email convo with Kyle regarding the WGN series of pennants that we date to 1950-52. Thought I’d share an observation. I’m suspecting that the same company was the “major” producer all during the 1940s. Speaking specifically about the pennants with: wide spine, soft thin tassels not close to edge, single stitch. There exist pennants in the series we know that have this construction.. See NYG and Cubs pennants below. (Cubs has tassels tucked behind.)

Now observe the script of ‘Wrigley Field’. Looks exactly like that on my 1944 Browns pennant. So I’m thinking this is the company behind all of these - the pennant wheel pic I found online. ... Kyle noticed that the Yankees pennant matches letter font to the 1950, 1951 ASG pennants. Anyway, I found this to be interesting!

Not all the Cub pennants from this series had tassels. Why would certain ones be made differently?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by MK

Not all the Cub pennants from this series had tassels. Why would certain ones be made differently?

Because some worker at the factory (making 25 cents an hour) knew that 70 years later, in the year 2021, a few baseball nerds would be analyzing the crap out of these felt triangles... and he/she just want to f*ck with us.

Seriously I don't think there's much rhyme or reason to these anomalies. I can't imagine an executive at WGN barking out to his seamstress, "Sheila, put tassels on those green ones, but be sure the red ones remain tassel-free.

Perhaps it's something as simple as the seamstress was running late, and wanted to put dinner on the table that night. So she cut corners at work, and said to hell with the tassels. Or perhaps it was a temporary cost-cutting thing. Or maybe there was a lazy employee who had to be let go. Or maybe the company just ran out of stock on tassels for a period.

Maybe WW2 caused there to be a tassel shortage. Only one thing's for sure... we will never know why some had tassels and some don't.

[MK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because some worker at the factory (making 25 cents an hour) knew that 70 years later, in the year 2021, a few baseball nerds would be analyzing the crap out of these felt triangles... and he/she just want to f*ck with us.

Seriously I don't think there's much rhyme or reason to these anomalies. I can't imagine an executive at WGN barking out to his seamstress, "Sheila, put tassels on those green ones, but be sure the red ones remain tassel-free.

Perhaps it's something as simple as the seamstress was running late, and wanted to put dinner on the table that night. So she cut corners at work, and said to hell with the tassels. Or perhaps it was a temporary cost-cutting thing. Or maybe there was a lazy employee who had to be let go. Or maybe the company just ran out of stock on tassels for a period.

Maybe WW2 caused there to be a tassel shortage. Only one thing's for sure... we will never know why some had tassels and some don't.

I soooo want to believe that they did this just to f**k with us years later. Because it’s working. 😂

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by MK

Not all the Cub pennants from this series had tassels. Why would certain ones be made differently?

Most of them don't have tassels. But I think the few that do provide the link to others with same construction but different artwork.

Here's my album for this series, hopefully this works. Only team missing is the Cardinals, and if that recent crazy eBay auction for a dull Cards pennant is any indication, I’ll be going to my grave without a complete set

https://photos.app.goo.gl/znecMcWWbjS1uJpJ7

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Most of them don't have tassels. But I think the few that do provide the link to others with same construction but different artwork.

Here's my album for this series, hopefully this works. Only team missing is the Cardinals, and if that recent crazy eBay auction for a dull Cards pennant is any indication, I’ll be going to my grave without a complete set

https://photos.app.goo.gl/znecMcWWbjS1uJpJ7

Here’s one with tassels but without Wrigley Field at the bottom.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because some worker at the factory (making 25 cents an hour) knew that 70 years later, in the year 2021, a few baseball nerds would be analyzing the crap out of these felt triangles... and he/she just want to f*ck with us.

Seriously I don't think there's much rhyme or reason to these anomalies. I can't imagine an executive at WGN barking out to his seamstress, "Sheila, put tassels on those green ones, but be sure the red ones remain tassel-free.

Perhaps it's something as simple as the seamstress was running late, and wanted to put dinner on the table that night. So she cut corners at work, and said to hell with the tassels. Or perhaps it was a temporary cost-cutting thing. Or maybe there was a lazy employee who had to be let go. Or maybe the company just ran out of stock on tassels for a period.

Maybe WW2 caused there to be a tassel shortage. Only one thing's for sure... we will never know why some had tassels and some don't.

Good stuff Mark! Lol

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Most of them don't have tassels. But I think the few that do provide the link to others with same construction but different artwork.

Here's my album for this series, hopefully this works. Only team missing is the Cardinals, and if that recent crazy eBay auction for a dull Cards pennant is any indication, I’ll be going to my grave without a complete set

https://photos.app.goo.gl/znecMcWWbjS1uJpJ7

Keep it up, Greg. I’m a visual learner.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

Good stuff Mark! Lol

LOL! Probably right But on the other hand, at a time when you could only get at most 2 or 3 different flavors of ice cream at the corner market, you could venture down to Ebbets Field and get one of at least SIX different colors of Emmet Kelly. (I think there’s orange?) ...

These might have been a bigger deal than we think ... if only because the variety of souvenirs in general was limited to just a few items. And screen printing one color at a time is an ordeal. .... But yeah, I don’t think there were big board meetings to discuss “tassels or no tassels”.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by MK

Not all the Cub pennants from this series had tassels. Why would certain ones be made differently?

Although WGN was known for, shall we say, "inconsistencies" in their manufacturing process, I think there's a better answer: By about 1950 or so, WGN transitioned to a different pennant style. That's about when they introduced limited color graphics; and they stopped using tassels. As best we can tell, this series spanned a few years around the year 1950 (plus or minus 2 years?). That's right around the time that they stopped using tassels.

This to me best explains why the older, black/orange cubs version has tassels; and the newer red/white one doesn't.

That, and ... they totally wanted to F with us.

[perezfan]

Here’s 3 more of theirs for sure...

[thetahat]

Mark that’s cool ... and now we know the same company made three different pennants for a single game. (1951 ASG) To be that indicates that pennants were a pretty big deal back then!

[thetahat]

It appears they also made a second 1947 ASG pennant, the one with names in ribbons ... I think you have that, too?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Mark that’s cool ... and now we know the same company made three different pennants for a single game. (1951 ASG) To be that indicates that pennants were a pretty big deal back then!

They’re still a big deal!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Been having a great email convo with Kyle regarding the WGN series of pennants that we date to 1950-52. Thought I’d share an observation. I’m suspecting that the same company was the “major” producer all during the 1940s. Speaking specifically about the pennants with: wide spine, soft thin tassels not close to edge, single stitch. There exist pennants in the series we know that have this construction.. See NYG and Cubs pennants below. (Cubs has tassels tucked behind.)

So, what do we make of this SF pennant? Obviously, 1958 or later. It has the "satiny" spine. Just some unknown maker, stealing artwork? BTW - this is a pretty tough pennant to find and one of my favorite,s due to the "one off" font.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

It appears they also made a second 1947 ASG pennant, the one with names in ribbons ... I think you have that, too?

I have that one posted on my site; but, I believe it to be by ADFLAG not WGN.

(The lettering is a tad bit smoother and matches that of later ADFLAG pennants.)

It gets confusing because both WGN and ADFLAG made similar looking pennants during the same time frame, in the same city, for the same teams/events; and, both copied each other's artwork at different times.

[thetahat]

Multi-sport star (photo courtesy of Football Rob website)

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

It appears they also made a second 1947 ASG pennant, the one with names in ribbons ... I think you have that, too?

I think this is one you mean.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

So, what do we make of this SF pennant? Obviously, 1958 or later. It has the "satiny" spine. Just some unknown maker, stealing artwork? BTW - this is a pretty tough pennant to find and one of my favorite,s due to the "one off" font.

This is a beautiful pennant, Rob! It’s hard to figure. I lean away from WGN because of the spine, not just the material but the crooked stitch (which doesn’t detract from its coolness) is unlike them. In that sense it resembles Ad Flag. Another indication is the type of stitch ... and here I have to plead ignorance, I don’t know the names. But there are three distinct types

1. Trench (almost all, but not all) and WGN used a simple stitch, with long length, that would come loose easily.

2. Ad Flag, Keezer, and ASCO used what looks like a reinforced stitch, noticeable on the back. Looks like a tight straight line. These were much more sturdy.

3. Zig zag stitch which I’ve only seen on one very rare series, unknown maker.

The early pennants seemed to use a simple stitch like Trench but very short length which made the spine tighter. Rarely see pre-teen pennants with loose spine and tassels that fell out.

As for Trench ... there’s a guy on eBay selling 3/4 size pennants (Red Sox, KCA, White Sox, LAA) from a find ... he even showed a pic of the box which was from Trench. Cloth pennants with cloth spine, and a stitch like ASCO. But they also look a little sloppy ... in the sense that my first thought was that they were knockoffs. But the box said otherwise.

.... As you know I’ve been fascinated with this set for quite awhile and I’ve never seen Orioles or KC A’s. There is this Milwaukee pennant, however (not mine)

[Fballguy]

Haven't bought too much in the last couple of months, but lucked into this one. Had never seen it before.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by MK

I think this is one you mean.

Yep there it is. Great pennant!

[thetahat]

Left is ASCO stitching on a 1969 Cubs pic pennant. Right is Trench.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Multi-sport star (photo courtesy of Football Rob website)

That’s great. A Bo Jackson kind of dude.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Haven't bought too much in the last couple of months, but lucked into this one. Had never seen it before.

I like pennants with exact dates ... never seen this one before either.

[thetahat]

Oops, someone bought a repro ...

[Bumpus Jones]

Picked this beauty up recently but I'm wondering who the manufacturer may be? Looks like N.Y.P.CO. Which maybe stands for New York Pennant Company? I perused domer's excellent pennant info but i'm still left wondering...

[jsage]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here’s 3 more of theirs for sure...

Mark -
Nice looking Rare 1947 All Star Pennant
Jerry

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Bumpus Jones

Picked this beauty up recently but I'm wondering who the manufacturer may be? Looks like N.Y.P.CO. Which maybe stands for New York Pennant Company? I perused domer's excellent pennant info but i'm still left wondering...

That is a beauty! Any chance that P could be an R? if so, maybe the NY Reproduction Co.

[jsage]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here’s 3 more of theirs for sure...

Mark -
"After further review" The 1949 looks to be very rare and the best.
Jerry

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jsage

Mark -
"After further review" The 1949 looks to be very rare and the best.
Jerry

Yes it is!

That one came from Jerry's treasure trove, and he graciously let it go. Might be my rarest All Star. I've sold a few really good ones lately, but am definitely holding on to that one.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That is a beauty! Any chance that P could be an R? if so, maybe the NY Reproduction Co.

Nope. It's a P with a period. I have the same pennant, and it's clearly a P.

I would agree with Chris, that it likely stands for New York Pennant Co.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Nope. It's a P with a period. I have the same pennant, and it's clearly a P. I would agree with Chris, that it likely stands for New York Pennant Co.

More of their work...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-195...-/293190648615


Some nice info in the text/description here. It says N.Y.P.Co. made pennants from the early 1920s through the 1950s...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/5481753...isting_details


They were apparently big into City Souvenir Pennants...

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/357614026639070787/


Another Cincinnati variation...

https://www.ebth.com/items/1676247-c...uvenir-pennant


And finally, this link has some info. If you scroll towards the bottom, the second offering under "past items" states that NYP Co. made pennants as early as 1927...

https://thea.com/Vintage-Vintage-Pennants/


In summary, I would definitely say that this company primarily made travel pennants. Their artwork was stellar and second-to-none. It has a very detailed, distinctive and ornate appearance. Very cool to find a sports-themed Reds pennant from this maker of travel pennants!

[thetahat]

I have same pennant, in maroon. Seems to me I’ve seen other baseball pennants with similar fancy ... what do you call it, serifs? .... around the perimeter of the graphic. Maybe a Jackie pennant? Senators?

[ooo-ribay]

The number of sites Mark cites is scary. Talk about no stone unturned!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I have same pennant, in maroon. Seems to me I’ve seen other baseball pennants with similar fancy ... what do you call it, serifs? .... around the perimeter of the graphic. Maybe a Jackie pennant? Senators?

There is a Senators pennant--or it might be Nationals--with some stuff like that around the Capitol building (from when you could just stroll right in and do your business!)

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Nope. It's a P with a period. I have the same pennant, and it's clearly a P.

I would agree with Chris, that it likely stands for New York Pennant Co.

Mark, I totally agree: New York Pennant Co. made some really cool pennants. Their artwork was incredibly detailed; and, they used like 3-4 colors on every image.

I wonder why they made a Reds pennant; but nothing (to my knowledge) for the hometown Yankees, Dodgers, or Giants?

How close is is N.Y.P. Co.'s image of Crosley Field to Trench's, as seen on the latter's 1950s-era stadium pennants? The artwork sure looks similar.

[thetahat]

I’m pretty sure that there is a 1940 World Series pennant from same company with same graphic.

[MK]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I’m pretty sure that there is a 1940 World Series pennant from same company with same graphic.

This one. Not mine.

[thetahat]

2014, the good ol' days ....

[Bumpus Jones]

LOL! Good stuff Greg. Really appreciate everyone's input on the subject.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

2014, the good ol' days ....

Oh man... If I was selling those two, I would be thrilled to realize half of those prices.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Oh man... If I was selling those two, I would be thrilled to realize half of those prices.

I suspect they both sold for less than that. A fatal flaw of Worthpoint is it shows the asking price for items with the best offer option, not the sold price. There are multiple sales of that pennant within months of these in the $250-$300 range.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I suspect they both sold for less than that. A fatal flaw of Worthpoint is it shows the asking price for items with the best offer option, not the sold price. There are multiple sales of that pennant within months of these in the $250-$300 range.

Ok, good to know. I was thinking there’s no way those prices could be real.

[baseball tourist]

Not mine, but some interesting ones from FB group pennant I’m on. One fellow is asking for a rough value on his two basketball pennants, if anyone has an idea? Thanks!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I suspect they both sold for less than that. A fatal flaw of Worthpoint is it shows the asking price for items with the best offer option, not the sold price. There are multiple sales of that pennant within months of these in the $250-$300 range.

Well no I didn’t think that those prices reflected actual “value” or whatever they would get if auctioned now. That being said, it seems that the Best Offer option was instituted in October 2017. So I don’t think that applies here. More likely these were just off-the-rails auctions like that simple Cardinals pennant from a week or so ago. I would expect it to be $250-300 if auctioned today but plus/minus a big margin of error.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Well no I didn’t think that those prices reflected actual “value” or whatever they would get if auctioned now. That being said, it seems that the Best Offer option was instituted in October 2017. So I don’t think that applies here. More likely these were just off-the-rails auctions like that simple Cardinals pennant from a week or so ago. I would expect it to be $250-300 if auctioned today but plus/minus a big margin of error.

Regarding the Crosley Field Pennants, if you average it out, you are spot on...

$475 - $525 for the vibrant N.Y.P Co. version
$75 - $125 for the plainer, more faded version

[ASpaceman]

Back from the framer.

As an Indians fan - I feel so uncomfortable with this hanging over my desk.

Rob - thank you for the working with me on it. I couldn't be more pleased

[bocca001]

That Detroit pennant looks great in the frame, with that background. Very nice!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ASpaceman

Back from the framer.

As an Indians fan - I feel so uncomfortable with this hanging over my desk.

Rob - thank you for the working with me on it. I couldn't be more pleased

A stunner! Beautiful matting and Framing... You can never go wrong with a solid black frame. Well done!