Hey, pennant guys

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I’m getting confused by this discussion.

Also, bummed that I have nothing to add.

Rob, now you know how I always feel in these discussions. 🤪

Rick

[brad15]

3000

[perezfan]

Ok it’s a bit confusing with two different “type pennants” being discussed. First we have the ribbed spine/tassel series. The red Colt .45s pennant belongs to this series, and is the immediate precursor to the Astros’ Astronaut pennant.

Then we have the zigzag spine series. I am positive that the Batting Sock pennant is part of this series. The felt has the same texture and thickness. And the zigzag stitching is identical to the Reds and Angels examples. In addition, look how similar the city name font looks on the Reds and Red Sox examples. Hope this serves to clarify.

Now Baseball Rob... your job (should you choose to accept it) is to go out and find both Giants examples. The Mission Impossible reference seemed appropriate!

[Fredskinz]

Won this in Huggins and Scott’s auction the other day. Wondering if you guys had thoughts on what it is? I found an old thread on here regarding what seems like a similar DeMar pennant but I can’t see the photos for some reason.

Contacted the guy who wrote the book on pennants and he doesn’t know what it is. Anyways, any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ok it’s a bit confusing with two different “type pennants” being discussed. First we have the ribbed spine/tassel series. The red Colt .45s pennant belongs to this series, and is the immediate precursor to the Astros’ Astronaut pennant.

Then we have the zigzag spine series. I am positive that the Batting Sock pennant is part of this series. The felt has the same texture and thickness. And the zigzag stitching is identical to the Reds and Angels examples. In addition, look how similar the city name font looks on the Reds and Red Sox examples. Hope this serves to clarify.

Now Baseball Rob... your job (should you choose to accept it) is to go out and find both Giants examples. The Mission Impossible reference seemed appropriate!

I'm confused too..So Mark, are you saying both Colt's images I posted are from the same set..One full and one mini? Both the ribbed spine/tassels series?

And I think Chris is saying is that his Reds isn't zig zagged. Or is he referring to something else?

Who's on first?

Let's call the whole thing off!

[bocca001]

The full size Colts pennant is from the ribbed tassels/spine maker.

The design of the smaller Colts pennant sure seems to match the Astronaut and Oilers pennants I posted earlier (from the ribbed series).

So, yes, it appears that they may be from the same maker. A maker who did not make very many pennants, because all of these appear to be rare.

[thetahat]

The large Colt 45s is unquestionably a Keezer, and I agree that it was the precursor to the astronaut Astros. Observe the font of HOUSTON. It’s possible that the zig zag pennants are also Keezer - they are similar in many ways - just don’t know for sure. I have a zigzag White Sox that I’ll post when I return home.

[bocca001]

The mini-pennant talk reminded me that I have this Giants pennant. It seems to fit with the style of the mini Colts pennant. It is about 12 inches. I have never seen a full-length version and have only seen the mini version once.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fredskinz

Won this in Huggins and Scott’s auction the other day. Wondering if you guys had thoughts on what it is? I found an old thread on here regarding what seems like a similar DeMar pennant but I can’t see the photos for some reason.

Contacted the guy who wrote the book on pennants and he doesn’t know what it is. Anyways, any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cool pennant, congratulations! We did discuss this very pennant and manufacturer over on pages 40-41 of this thread. The picture of that pennant is still up, in fact. It's identical to yours, to include the maker's mark by DeMar Mfg. Co. of Buffalo, NY.

That "reverse direction" style was offered by several manufacturers in the 1910s and 1920s, which is when I'd date your pennant to have been made.

But is it a Pittsburgh Pirates baseball pennant, I think your question is? I think the consensus was: probably not. I've seen more than a dozen pennants from that era by DeMar, and nearly all were travel/souvenir pennants. No professional sports teams. One or two pennants that could have been collegiate pennants, e.g., a blue and gold sewn letter "MICHIGAN" pennant. But that's it.

The challenge with pennants from the early 20th century is that travel/souvenir pennants were far, far more common than professional baseball pennants, which were actually quite rare. I think the consensus of people on this thread is: it's a travel/souvenir pennant until you can produce a photo of somebody in the ballpark waving said pennant.

But hey, it's a cool pennant either way. Hang it in a room full of Pirates stuff, like your Honus Wagner T206 baseball cards, and it will look even better!

[cincicards]

Not really a pennant collector, but I have these ads saved:


Detroit_Free_Press_Sat__May_17__1913a__zpsnwnca6uj.jpg

aDetroit_Free_Press_Wed__Mar_19__1913__zpsj25u73l6.jpg

s-l500.jpg

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by cincicards

Not really a pennant collector, but I have these ads saved:


Attachment 386549

Attachment 386550

Attachment 386548

Very interesting. It proves your DETROIT is a baseball pennant. There had been some differing opinions on those.

[Domer05]

Wow, very interesting ads. That's exactly the kind of evidence you need to make your case.

Any idea when those ads were run??

Now we'll have to find the other six AL city/team pennants.

[cincicards]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Wow, very interesting ads. That's exactly the kind of evidence you need to make your case.

Any idea when those ads were run??

Now we'll have to find the other six AL city/team pennants.

The ads are from 1913.

[cincicards]

Here is another ad for all eight pennants (Detroit Free Press - Mar 13, 1913):

pennants.jpg

[MK]

While sorting through some boxes I had packed away, I came across an auction catalog from Mastro in 1998. Most of the items in this auction were memorabilia although it also had great cards including an ungraded T206 Wagner (which they admitted had some restoration). Among the items, were several vintage pennants which are pictured below. I have no idea how much any of these went for as I do not have the final price list. By any chance does anyone have the prices for this auction? It took place July 16-17, 1998.

[perezfan]

I remember that auction. I do not have the prices realized, but am positive that the Oversized pennants sold for lots less back in 1998, while the more common ones sold for a bit more than they do now. This auction took place right before eBay took off...

I believe that eBay really changed the market for these things when they came into prominence. The Oversized teens pennants dried up completely, as you rarely see them on eBay anymore. Thus the severe price escalation. And the others from the 1950s-60s were proven to be more common than perhaps initially believed. Many/most of those prices have held stagnant, or have even dropped a bit in price.

I remember well when Lelands featured that Brooklyn Bum pennant (shown in the Mastro Catalogue). It was around that same time, and went for $750 plus the BP. Today, you’d do well to get $175 for it. Just some ramblings from a washed out “pennant guy”.

[MK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I remember that auction. I do not have the prices realized, but am positive that the Oversized pennants sold for lots less back in 1998, while the more common ones sold for a bit more than they do now. This auction took place right before eBay took off...

I believe that eBay really changed the market for these things when they came into prominence. The Oversized teens pennants dried up completely, as you rarely see them on eBay anymore. Thus the severe price escalation. And the others from the 1950s-60s were proven to be more common than perhaps initially believed. Many/most of those prices have held stagnant, or have even dropped a bit in price.

I remember well when Lelands featured that Brooklyn Bum pennant (shown in the Mastro Catalogue). It was around that same time, and went for $750 plus the BP. Today, you’d do well to get $175 for it. Just some ramblings from a washed out “pennant guy”.

Thanks Mark. Your “ramblings” are always helpful.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ok it’s a bit confusing with two different “type pennants” being discussed. First we have the ribbed spine/tassel series. The red Colt .45s pennant belongs to this series, and is the immediate precursor to the Astros’ Astronaut pennant.

Then we have the zigzag spine series. I am positive that the Batting Sock pennant is part of this series. The felt has the same texture and thickness. And the zigzag stitching is identical to the Reds and Angels examples. In addition, look how similar the city name font looks on the Reds and Red Sox examples. Hope this serves to clarify.

Now Baseball Rob... your job (should you choose to accept it) is to go out and find both Giants examples. The Mission Impossible reference seemed appropriate!

White Sox pennant with the zigzag stitch

[Bumpus Jones]

Nice and then there were 4!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Mark,
That “1931” A’s pennant looks like your 1936 Yankees pennant. I have not seen that A’s pennant before.

[thetahat]

Regarding the 1931 Athletics pennant in the catalog ... This series has always interested me. Have seen a 1919 White Sox and I own a 1920 Dodgers. Clearly the same company that made these. Would love more info ...

[perezfan]

Yes... it’s an intriguing series that seems to have spanned many years and covered many pennant-winning teams. I’ve also seen a Senators version (had to be from 1925, I suppose).

The only 1919 White Sox I’ve ever seen was in the original Halper/Sotheby’s auction. I believe it sold for more than $40K, but I will double-check when I’m back home.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I’m still a sore loser on the Yankees. I have seen others too. I’ve seen a 1920 Cleveland and obviously the newer ones like the Browns and Cardinals from late 30’s and early 40’s. I have owned and sold a few of the different Cardinals versions. I didn’t think the White Sox one went that high, but I remember it well and was wowed when I saw it. I don’t believe I ever heard where it went or referenced since that auction.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I’m still a sore loser on the Yankees. I have seen others too. I’ve seen a 1920 Cleveland and obviously the newer ones like the Browns and Cardinals from late 30’s and early 40’s. I have owned and sold a few of the different Cardinals versions. I didn’t think the White Sox one went that high, but I remember it well and was wowed when I saw it. I don’t believe I ever heard where it went or referenced since that auction.

1920 Dodgers.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I think there might be a Giants one as well.

[Fballguy]

This guys fakes are getting more realistic looking.

Hi! I found this on eBay and thought you might like it! Check it out now! Special New York Yankees pennant 'UNCLE SAM' banner full size excellent Unique* https://ebay.us/V0tYGe

Screen Shot 2020-02-27 at 1.48.34 PM.jpg

[Tigerden]

Disregard. I just had the brilliant idea of checking the Bay. Answered my own question. Its a common one as I thought. Thanks. Adam

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

This guys fakes are getting more realistic looking.

Hi! I found this on eBay and thought you might like it! Check it out now! Special New York Yankees pennant 'UNCLE SAM' banner full size excellent Unique* https://ebay.us/V0tYGe

Attachment 387066

No wooden mini-bat...? No tuft of white hair...?

THIS GUY'S AN AMATEUR

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I think there might be a Giants one as well.

My guess is that it is a St. Louis pennant company, because of the prevalence of Browns and Cardinals team pennants ... don’t know if any other team has undated pennants from the series.

Was thinking ... an interesting project could be archiving pics of pennants not by team (like the pennant “price” guide) but by series. Hmmmm....

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

My guess is that it is a St. Louis pennant company, because of the prevalence of Browns and Cardinals team pennants ... don’t know if any other team has undated pennants from the series.

Was thinking ... an interesting project could be archiving pics of pennants not by team (like the pennant “price” guide) but by series. Hmmmm....

That would indeed be pretty cool. But it might involve some "guesswork" and maybe a few good debates every now and then. Sure would be fun to try.

I'll post something loosely related to that effect in just a minute...

[perezfan]

OK, speaking of pennant "series"...

One thing I've noticed is that the "Stadium Pennants of the 1950s - 60s seem to have been released in multiple "series". A few examples pictured below...

1. Earlier Reds
2. Later Reds
3. Earlier Pirates
4. Later Pirates
5. Earlier Cardinals
6. Later Cardinals

My evidence to support this is that (as a kid) my Dad got me the LATER Reds and LATER Pirates pennants from Crosley Field. Both were bought in 1968.... just before the pennants all turned stiffer and featured the 1969 MLB Logo. So (sadly) these were the last "Stadium Pennant" designs ever produced.

A central theme seems to be that the earlier Stadium Pennants depict a larger stadium and the later versions feature a smaller stadium. I believe these were all made by Trench, so it's kind of cool that they kept things fresh by revamping the designs.

[perezfan]

Here's a more perplexing one, of which I don't know the answer...

During their brief stay in Kansas City, the Athletics had 4 different Stadium Pennants (see below...) Anyone want to take a stab at the order in which they were released?

[perezfan]

This one's a lot easier, based on the style of Wahoo...

1. Earlier Indians
2. Later Indans

[ooo-ribay]

Looking forward to reading Mark's posts but, for now, here's a photo of a pennant on ebay. Isn't this part of a series you guys were recently talking about?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

This one's a lot easier, based on the style of Wahoo...

1. Earlier Indians
2. Later Indans

Great observation Mark! These pennants don't get the love they deserve (at least monetarily), which I guess is good if you want to collect them. I've always been a bigger fan of the politically incorrect Indians mascot than the more delicate later one.

And I never quite got the concept of A's man. Ummm...errrr...why?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Looking forward to reading Mark's posts but, for now, here's a photo of a pennant on ebay. Isn't this part of a series you guys were recently talking about?

Hey Rob, that’s a Keezer for sure .... not one with zigzag stitching but still cool.

Mark: GREAT stuff, I’ll be chiming in shortly.

[thetahat]

Now here’s the smaller Forbes stadium ... dated 1959. And a Redlegs with smaller Crosley ...

[perezfan]

Baseball Rob:
Yes, I do think that Dodgers Pennant is likely part of the series that includes the Keezer Astronaut, Colt 45s, Oilers and Angels Pennants (in other words, not the zig-zag stitching series). It has the same level of rarity and a very similar design. It looks to have the right type of spine and thicker tassels, but would be good to have a better close-up shot, just to verify whether they are indeed "ribbed".

Football Rob:
Fully agree.... that "A" Guy might be the dumbest logo/mascot ever created. But regardless of "why" he was created, I think he represents the last A's mascot before leaving KC. They carried him over to the earliest Oakland A's pennants, so that one is likely the last-ever KC Stadium Pennant.

Greg:
You've shot some holes in my theory with that smaller Forbes Field (depicted on the '59 All Star Pennant). So I guess Trench must have sold the larger and smaller Forbes versions concurrently. Definitely some overlap there... but I know for a fact that the smaller Crosley and Forbes versions were sold in stadiums as late as 1968. Could've been just leftover inventory, I suppose. So the mystery continues...

[ooo-ribay]

D**gers pennant is $400 BIN or best offer.

[ooo-ribay]

I breathed a sigh of relief when I got this black, "horizontal bat" pennant. I had visions of one of my Giants "friends" snaking me on it....so much so that I increased my snipe from $130+ to $150+ to $200+ . Turns out I got it for $66 . I was going to (grudgingly) pay the $14.90 shipping but my snipe said shipping was $8.90....so, I asked the seller for clarification and he shipped it for $7.00! P.S. the tip is sharp.

Have we decided if this "horizontal bat" is unique to Giants or did other teams do it as well? It is about 50x (?) rarer than the vertical bat and bridge.

[ooo-ribay]

a) Mark has too damn many pennants!

b) I love all of those "stadium" pennants!

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I breathed a sigh of relief when I got this black, "horizontal bat" pennant. I had visions of one of my Giants "friends" snaking me on it....so much so that I increased my snipe from $130+ to $150+ to $200+ . Turns out I got it for $66 . I was going to (grudgingly) pay the $14.90 shipping but my snipe said shipping was $8.90....so, I asked the seller for clarification and he shipped it for $7.00! P.S. the tip is sharp.

Have we decided if this "horizontal bat" is unique to Giants or did other teams do it as well? It is about 50x (?) rarer than the vertical bat and bridge.

Ha...I bid on that Rob but didn't want to go north of $100. Didn't think it was rare enough for you to not have it. I was going ask but figured it was too common. I guess pink socks are hard to come by.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Ha...I bid on that Rob but didn't want to go north of $100. Didn't think it was rare enough for you to not have it. I was going ask but figured it was too common. I guess pink socks are hard to come by.

WTF is a Fballguy doing bidding on "my" Giants pennants???

Besides, I thought your pennant budget was going into travel...

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

WTF is a Fballguy doing bidding on "my" Giants pennants???

Besides, I thought your pennant budget was going into travel...

I'm like a metronome rocking back and forth. One day I'm leaning travel. The next I'm leaning pennants. That was a pennant day.

Looks like somebody bought the Dodgers pennant. I didn't like the looks of the tip.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I'm like a metronome rocking back and forth. One day I'm leaning travel. The next I'm leaning pennants. That was a pennant day.

Looks like somebody bought the Dodgers pennant. I didn't like the looks of the tip.

Now that you mention it, it does look a little funky on the top side.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have we decided if this "horizontal bat" is unique to Giants or did other teams do it as well? It is about 50x (?) rarer than the vertical bat and bridge.

It's pretty unique...but not completely unique.

Astros.jpg

[bocca001]

I bid on the Giants pennant, but already have a decent copy (of the bright pink socks versions). I see that baseball Rob has several different versions. It always seems strange to me when there are so many versions of the rare pennants. But it also makes if fun to collect.

I'm still looking for the Astros version posted by football Rob. It's probably from the maker (series?) as the top pennant in the pic below (same not super high quality image of the Astrodome), which is very rare.

[thetahat]

Now for another can o’ worms ... this here Mets stadium pennant, which personally I love. The artwork has a great 60s looks to it, almost like the Jetsons or old Flintstones. And it’s cloth. But this doesn’t seem to fit with the other stadium pennants, as if it was a unique company. Just looks different. Thoughts?

EDIT: Actually the year and the writing below is similar to some others, come to think of it ...

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Looking forward to reading Mark's posts but, for now, here's a photo of a pennant on ebay. Isn't this part of a series you guys were recently talking about?

I remembered seeing a similar pennant, and was able to find the a listing for it in an ITPC auction from 2008 (it seems the minimum bid of $125 wasn't met).
Seems to be the same graphic on the left, but one says Los Angeles, the other Dodgers, and the look of the lettering is quite different. The auction listing refers to the one on the bottom as originating "as a souvenir at Hawaii's Columbia Inn which was billed as the second home of the L.A. Dodgers".

Rick

pennant comparision.jpg

[pologrounds]

Today's pick. Black and Orange. Full size. Crisp. Phiti compliments of Mayseum