Hey, pennant guys

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here ya go

Thanks, Greg! I had wondered about the Vet in Philadelphia. I looked around at some Phillies pennants but didn't see anything stampted (admittedly, I looked for all of about 4 minutes). I wonder if they stamped Phillies pennants too? Or if any other stadiums did this? Interesting to know that I own an Astros pennant from a Phillies game.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Just picked up this funky 1970s(?) version of an Astros Astrodome pennant. This version, with the "thick" Houston is somewhat less common than many other versions.

Note the "VET" mark/stamp at the bottom. Figured I'd share to see what Kyle might know about it.

I wish I knew more about this "VET" mark. I've seen it on 1970s-era pennants--typically on white pennants. Sure looks like a maker's mark ... or, a concessionaire's mark.

I guess it could refer to Veteran's Stadium. But, why would it?? The Phillies certainly didn't manufacture their own pennants. And the presence of the league logo indicates that these were officially licensed by MLB. By the 1970s, only Trench, ASCO, and a company out of Brooklyn called APSCO enjoyed such rights.

A concessionaire's mark seems more likely; but, at the time, the biggest concessionaire was Aramark, conveniently headquartered in--you guessed it--Philadelphia. And their concessionaire's mark looked nothing like this. (It's a circle with "ARA" inside it.) I can't imagine anyone else running concessions at Veteran's Stadium than Aramark. Nor can I think of any other concessionaire that started with a "V."

Also, if "VET" signified some connection to the stadium you'd expect the majority of these pennants to be Phillies (or Eagles) pennants. I can't say I've ever seen one.

And if we're thinking the Phillies sold these non-Phillies pennants whenever these visiting teams came to town, how do we explain why a Texas Rangers pennant was ever sold at Veteran's Stadium?

I'm stumped. If I had to guess, I'd guess Trench made these for some retailer none of us are thinking of, like a now defunct sporting goods store/chain starting with a "V."

[thetahat]

That argument seems more likely, although I do know that the Vet sold pennants of all teams ... I got a few AL teams there ...

[bocca001]

I spent some time this AM looking for these VET pennants, for both the Astros and Giants (teams I collect). I found another version of the Astros pennant with the VET stamp, but none without the stamp. I also found a Giants pennant with the VET stamp, but none of the same version without it.

Both of these pennants are similar to common designs from the era, but each seems somewhat different. A bit more colorful. I wonder if anyone has the exact same pennants without the VET stamp? If these versions only exist with the VET stamp, it would suggest that they may be exclusive (to some seller) or maybe simply short-lived variants.

[bigfische]

Any help on this Yankees pennant? Picked up at an estate sale with no backstory.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bigfische

Any help on this Yankees pennant? Picked up at an estate sale with no backstory.

I think it's probably a modern fantasy piece. I've never seen it, though, and it's pretty nice.

[Darner]

Here's a Phillies pennant with a VET stamp. The VET stamp is a little different with a period after VET and a number above. It also has a 1969 date under the MLB logo.

The Phillies did change to this logo in 1970 and planned to move into Veterans Stadium that year but the opening was delayed until 1971.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I wish I knew more about this "VET" mark. I've seen it on 1970s-era pennants--typically on white pennants. Sure looks like a maker's mark ... or, a concessionaire's mark.

I guess it could refer to Veteran's Stadium. But, why would it?? The Phillies certainly didn't manufacture their own pennants. And the presence of the league logo indicates that these were officially licensed by MLB. By the 1970s, only Trench, ASCO, and a company out of Brooklyn called APSCO enjoyed such rights.

A concessionaire's mark seems more likely; but, at the time, the biggest concessionaire was Aramark, conveniently headquartered in--you guessed it--Philadelphia. And their concessionaire's mark looked nothing like this. (It's a circle with "ARA" inside it.) I can't imagine anyone else running concessions at Veteran's Stadium than Aramark. Nor can I think of any other concessionaire that started with a "V."

Also, if "VET" signified some connection to the stadium you'd expect the majority of these pennants to be Phillies (or Eagles) pennants. I can't say I've ever seen one.

And if we're thinking the Phillies sold these non-Phillies pennants whenever these visiting teams came to town, how do we explain why a Texas Rangers pennant was ever sold at Veteran's Stadium?

I'm stumped. If I had to guess, I'd guess Trench made these for some retailer none of us are thinking of, like a now defunct sporting goods store/chain starting with a "V."

I had many of Kyle's same thoughts when the Veteran's Stadium theory was posted. I could definitely "see" that explanation if the "VET" was stamped on, like with an ink stamp. If that was the case, I could see someone at the stadium stamping the pennants. But it appears to be screened on with the rest of the graphics. In this case, I can't really see the manufacturer setting up a separate silk screen just for Veterans Stadium. Then again, like Mark, I don't have this particular pennant without the stamp. Mine has four, indecipherable numbers after the "Made in U,S.A."

Here's a couple more similar 1970's pennants with different marks. I think the one is Trench; no idea on the "M" (complete with dog hair).

[ooo-ribay]

More food for thought...

I thought I had found the same pennant without the VET mark, but they are not the same. The baseball stitching is fatter on the VET. Another strange thing is that the orange VET pennant is not printed on orange "felt." The orange must be screened on as well.

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

More food for thought...

I thought I had found the same pennant without the VET mark, but they are not the same. The baseball stitching is fatter on the VET. Another strange thing is that the orange VET pennant is not printed on orange "felt." The orange must be screened on as well.

Although not identical, those two Giants pennants are pretty close (at least on the front). Not sure what to say about the orange front and white back. Weird. My Astros pennant is blue felt (very stiff) front and back.

The Phillies pennant above is also a pretty common design for them (from what I can tell). Wonder if it might be slightly different from others that more or less look the same (with no VET).

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I wonder if anyone has the exact same pennants without the VET stamp? If these versions only exist with the VET stamp, it would suggest that they may be exclusive (to some seller) or maybe simply short-lived variants.

Bingo! These two blue variants look otherwise identical, but-for the "VET" mark.

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Bingo! These two blue variants look otherwise identical, but-for the "VET" mark.

Yep. Look to be the same, other than maybe the felt being an ever so slightly different color (could just be lighting for the pic). The blue on that Dodgers VET pennant looks just like the blue on my Astros VET pennant.

Still interesting that perhaps many or even most of a specific design would have the VET mark.

And now, just because it is something different, I'll kill some time over the next few months looking for the orange on front and white on back Giants pennant. Should be easier and more affordable than trying to win something from REA.

[ooo-ribay]

Speaking of REA, I obviously wanted the 3D Giants pennant but just couldn’t justify $1600. With that said, I’m surprised it didn’t go for more.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I wasn’t following other than when the guy said he consigned to REA. I am surprised it didn’t go for more myself.

[perezfan]

I had little intention of buying the Yankees 3D Pennant. But it’s my favorite of the four, and was (by far) in the best condition of the 3 being offered.

Why it went for so much less than the others is a mystery to me. Those 3 are all equally rare (behind the Red Sox). So I couldn’t lay off of it, given the low price it was at. And even though I’d already spent my wad with Lelands, I ended up getting it.

Now it’s time to sell some stuff!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I wasn’t following other than when the guy said he consigned to REA. I am surprised it didn’t go for more myself.

It was the first REA auction I can recall in which there were actually bargains to be had. I think that two things had a big affect on Memorabilia prices in REA...

1. Newly enacted sales tax probably knocked off a few bid increments
2. Too many auctions all at once...

LOTG
Paragon
Lelands
Goldin
Hunt Internet
Hunt Live
Heritage Internet
Heritage 3-stage Catalog
Mears
Nodder Exchange
Inside the Park

All within 9 days of one another. And SCP + Grey Flannel both coming shortly. Just a ridiculous number of auctions bunched way too close together.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I had little intention of buying the Yankees 3D Pennant. But it’s my favorite of the four, and was (by far) in the best condition of the 3 being offered.

Why it went for so much less than the others is a mystery to me. Those 3 are all equally rare (behind the Red Sox). So I couldn’t lay off of it, given the low price it was at. And even though I’d already spent my wad with Lelands, I ended up getting it.

Now it’s time to sell some stuff!

Time for me to buy some stuff!

[thetahat]

I am still looking for the Dodgers, the tear in the knapsack scared me off the numbers it was getting. Congrats to both the buyer and seller and Mark, you’ll love the Yankee pennant!

[perezfan]

Thanks Greg...

I agree it was a good decision to back off the Brooklyn pennant, given the torn sack and the big price it was getting. Looks like your other two are in stellar condition, and beautiful. That Giants pennant (holding the tiny ball) is off the charts cool.

Also relieved to see that these pennants fit into a top loader. I was really worried that the Yankees protruding Top Hat would prevent it from fitting inside the sleeve.

[thetahat]

What’s extra cool about these pennants is that all the printing has a felt like surface to it, but it is rigid (i.e. it cracks like paint). Very unique! I only saw the Red Sox pennant once and I think Rick H. won it.

[perezfan]

Not surprised. That Grail truly belongs in Rick’s collection.

[thetahat]

Here’s a question. Why do the Tigers have the most attractive pennants ... far and away. Probably the most variations, too, and the most dated pennants that do not commemorate a championship. But I don’t know of any scroll pennants of theirs besides the funky 1940 and the ‘45.

[perezfan]

I’ve got a few. One is a really unique gold color and the other is a beautiful raspberry color. Both are super gorgeous and rare. I’ll post pics if I can find them.

[perezfan]

I agree that Tigers pennants throughout the years are the best by far. It started in the teens (with oversized beauties) and continued all the way through the sixties, with more variations than any other team, by far. They also had more “Stadium” versions than any other team.

Would love to know why, but it would probably take thousands of hours of googling, only to come up with nothing. Perhaps their person in charge of concessions just loved Pennants the way we do!

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I had little intention of buying the Yankees 3D Pennant. But it’s my favorite of the four, and was (by far) in the best condition of the 3 being offered.

Why it went for so much less than the others is a mystery to me. Those 3 are all equally rare (behind the Red Sox). So I couldn’t lay off of it, given the low price it was at. And even though I’d already spent my wad with Lelands, I ended up getting it.

Now it’s time to sell some stuff!

I want to know what you're going to sell

[perezfan]

I’ll list some right in this thread if you want. Or on the BST, or both...

Marc, you like the Giants and the Houston Teams... is that right? If anyone else has specific team requests, just post here. I need to do some house cleaning but it’s a huge pain in the neck accessing and digging through bins, and taking/posting pics.

I didn’t have a good filing system, so there is stuff buried everywhere. Last week, I was looking for a specific pennant that someone wanted, and probably had to dig through 400 pennants before I found it. So please be patient if it takes a little time!

[perezfan]

On a separate note...

Is this not one of the best pennants of the post-war era? This one really has it all...

The Willard Mullin Bum inside a cloud
The caption “A New Home”
An amazingly detailed portrayal of the Coliseum
Beautiful colors and detail
Sports Specialties logo!
Perhaps the first-ever Dodgers pennant in LA.

I don’t think they used the Bum for more than a year or two after departing Brooklyn. I guess he just didn’t catch on with all the glitz and glimmer of LA. But I’ve always thought this Pennant is one of the very best, in terms of its aesthetics and telling a story.

Anyone else want to post a pennant they love, for any reason whatsoever?

[perezfan]

I guess this one is no slouch either. It’s fun digging through stuff and re-discovering lost treasures.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Acquired a new color of the Emmet Kelly Dodgers pennant, sort of a reddish purple. This joins: violet, blue, black, red, and green. (No fading, these are distinct colors.) My question is ... are there others? I think I’ve seen orange somewhere.

Great stuff! I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Bum on orange felt (as much as I’d love to). But here’s a true purple, much in the style of the Minnesota Vikings. It’s a beautiful pennant in person... cell phone pics just don’t do it justice.

Gotta love those “off color” pennants!

[thetahat]

If I had to pick one ... it’s not pristine but it’s in one piece with its tassels ...

[thetahat]

This is one of those pennants that is 100% cloth, including the spine and tassels. And that raises yet another question! Even when the cloth pennants came into style, they still used mostly felt for the appendages. (By cloth I mean the thin material that frays and fades but doesn’t get moth eaten.) I wonder why the 100% cloth pennants are so rare.

[perezfan]

Agree, Greg!

In terms of its great graphics, important year, creative way to scroll the names, and the insane rarity... that’s a Top 5 post-war pennant for sure.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Great stuff! I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Bum on orange felt (as much as I’d love to). But here’s a true purple, much in the style of the Minnesota Vikings. It’s a beautiful pennant in person... cell phone pics just don’t do it justice.

Gotta love those “off color” pennants!

Beautiful!!! The Emmet Kelly pennants are just stunning and I love him with the crown.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don’t think they used the Bum for more than a year or two after departing Brooklyn. I guess he just didn’t catch on with all the glitz and glimmer of LA. But I’ve always thought this Pennant is one of the very best, in terms of its aesthetics and telling a story.

Mark, those are great pennants. O'Malley wanted to distance the team from any connection to the old lovable Bums of Brooklyn, the name resulting from them always losing the WS up until 1955. He felt the move to LA needed to be focused on a successful team if they were going to have any chance of surviving here. Most people don't realize that the move wasn't popular to a lot of folks in LA, and a public referendum allowing Chavez Ravine to be swapped to O'Malley so he could build the new stadium was nearly defeated. So the Bum had to go, and the Dodgers had to be identified as winners. Kind of surprising the Bum resurfaced in 1963 on a pennant. I've seen that pennant, never noticed that it has the Sportsservice symbol on it.

Related to your post, I recently picked up the pennant below. I remember prior posts about how the same artwork was used for many different teams, just the names and colors were changed. Does anyone know if the little guy throwing the ball on this pennant was used for other teams (of course with a different logo on the hat)?

Rick

IMG_1576.jpg

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

This is one of those pennants that is 100% cloth, including the spine and tassels. And that raises yet another question! Even when the cloth pennants came into style, they still used mostly felt for the appendages. (By cloth I mean the thin material that frays and fades but doesn’t get moth eaten.) I wonder why the 100% cloth pennants are so rare.

I’ve never really understood the “cloth vs. felt” thing either. I personally prefer the true felt because it has a richer look. But the two styles had a huge decade-long overlap, so perhaps it just came down to which material was cheaper to buy in bulk at the time.

I think we sometimes over-analyze this stuff. But I guess that’s part of the fun in collecting.

That said... I hate all of the loose threads that stick out along the borders of the cloth style pennants. Does anyone else trim these off? Hope it’s not considered an alteration, as I’ve been know to trim off a thread or two. And I know I could get them past PSA (if they slabbed pennants, that is!)

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ve never really understood the “cloth vs. felt” thing either. I personally prefer the true felt because it has a richer look. But the two styles had a huge decade-long overlap, so perhaps it just came down to which material was cheaper to buy in bulk at the time.

I think we sometimes over-analyze this stuff. But I guess that’s part of the fun in collecting.

That said... I hate all of the loose threads that stick out along the borders of the cloth style pennants. Does anyone else trim these off? Hope it’s not considered an alteration, as I’ve been know to trim off a thread or two. And I know I could get them past PSA (if they slabbed pennants, that is!)

See I absolutely LOVE the cloth pennants provided that they are not faded. They just have a great feel to them. And yes I clip off the loose threads. And if you think we over-analyze ... pull up the “Show Me Your Print Variations” thread on post-war baseball card forum. I don’t collect cards but I like reading it. Incredible what they discover ...

[thetahat]

Rick: is this the one to which you referred?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Mark, those are great pennants. O'Malley wanted to distance the team from any connection to the old lovable Bums of Brooklyn, the name resulting from them always losing the WS up until 1955. He felt the move to LA needed to be focused on a successful team if they were going to have any chance of surviving here. Most people don't realize that the move wasn't popular to a lot of folks in LA, and a public referendum allowing Chavez Ravine to be swapped to O'Malley so he could build the new stadium was nearly defeated. So the Bum had to go, and the Dodgers had to be identified as winners. Kind of surprising the Bum resurfaced in 1963 on a pennant. I've seen that pennant, never noticed that it has the Sportsservice symbol on it.

Related to your post, I recently picked up the pennant below. I remember prior posts about how the same artwork was used for many different teams, just the names and colors were changed. Does anyone know if the little guy throwing the ball on this pennant was used for other teams (of course with a different logo on the hat)?

Rick

Attachment 376083

Rick-

Thanks! That’s great information about O’Malley, the rejection of the Bum, and the early reception of the Dodgers in the LA market.

As for your Dodgers pennant... that’s a rare version and very undervalued, IMHO. The Dodgers had a lot of Chavez Ravine variations, with that being perhaps the rarest. And that little midget mascot was never used by any other team, to my knowledge. I would’ve seen him by now!

Here’s another guy that’s completely unique to the Dodgers. Much more common pennant, but still a cool ‘60’s mascot...

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Rick: is this the one to which you referred?

Yes Greg, that's the one! Always loved that pennant, wish they did more with the bum.

Rick

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I think it's probably a modern fantasy piece. I've never seen it, though, and it's pretty nice.

I agree. The stitching is modern, but it looks well done and I have not seen it before. Almost looks like a foreign made piece.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ll list some right in this thread if you want. Or on the BST, or both...

Marc, you like the Giants and the Houston Teams... is that right? !

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm the Giants guy!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Thanks Greg...

I agree it was a good decision to back off the Brooklyn pennant, given the torn sack and the big price it was getting. Looks like your other two are in stellar condition, and beautiful. That Giants pennant (holding the tiny ball) is off the charts cool.

I could have put more money in the consignor's pockets with a direct deal. The buyer's premium, sales tax and probable higher than needed shipping cost put me off.

[Teamgluck]

I won that Giants pennant from REA yesterday

Was close on winning the collegiate of Ames Yankees as well but got outbid when I was asleep

[bocca001]

Speaking of favorite pennants and cloth vs. felt, I'll submit this example. Kyle pointed out earlier that it looks like the Giants are playing in Busch stadium, which makes it randomly fun. Also, I had this pennant out the other day and I swear that it is made out of denim. Very strange. But no loose threads.

[perezfan]

Too funny....

The Cubs did the same thing with Busch Stadium. Clearly that's the case here, but with "Wrigley Field" comically printed below.

I guess that was the pennant company's "stock drawing" of a stadium. Or maybe someone in the art department just got lazy!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree that Tigers pennants throughout the years are the best by far. It started in the teens (with oversized beauties) and continued all the way through the sixties, with more variations than any other team, by far. They also had more “Stadium” versions than any other team.

Would love to know why, but it would probably take thousands of hours of googling, only to come up with nothing. Perhaps their person in charge of concessions just loved Pennants the way we do!

I think I have the answer: it's the Trench-Sportservice partnership. By the 1940s, Trench was making some of the best pennants on the market. Their artwork was tops; as were their production methods. All they needed was a marketplace to sell their merch in.

The Tigers were one of the first teams to really give them that. That's because the Tigers were the first team to partner with Sportservice. Once Navin Field's ballpark concession stands were run by Sportservice in the 1930s, that opened the door for Trench's pennants. Trench seems to have capitalized on things by the early 1940s, making some really cutting edge pennants for their exclusive use.

If you look at 1940s Tigers pennants, I suspect many were made by Trench. Whereas other Trench pennants from this era utilized generic ballpark designs, their Tiger ones featured custom renderings of Briggs Stadium. Several different ones, in fact.

By the 1950s Trench was making stadium pennants for other teams; but, early on, not so much. The Tigers enjoyed early access to Trench pennants via Sportservice; and that connection seems to have generated some really special pennants for them and them alone.

I think that best explains why Tiger fans have it so good when it comes to terrific pennant designs.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I think I have the answer: it's the Trench-Sportservice partnership. By the 1940s, Trench was making some of the best pennants on the market. Their artwork was tops; as were their production methods. All they needed was a marketplace to sell their merch in.

The Tigers were one of the first teams to really give them that. That's because the Tigers were the first team to partner with Sportservice. Once Navin Field's ballpark concession stands were run by Sportservice in the 1930s, that opened the door for Trench's pennants. Trench seems to have capitalized on things by the early 1940s, making some really cutting edge pennants for their exclusive use.

If you look at 1940s Tigers pennants, I suspect many were made by Trench. Whereas other Trench pennants from this era utilized generic ballpark designs, their Tiger ones featured custom renderings of Briggs Stadium. Several different ones, in fact.

By the 1950s Trench was making stadium pennants for other teams; but, early on, not so much. The Tigers enjoyed early access to Trench pennants via Sportservice; and that connection seems to have generated some really special pennants for them and them alone.

I think that best explains why Tiger fans have it so good when it comes to terrific pennant designs.

Great info...I guess that explains why it's harder to sell Tigers pennants (for me anyway) and why they tend to go for less than I expected. I always thought Tigers fans were cheap...but it's just that there's no shortage of Tigers pennants out there.

[Fballguy]

One other note...The Tigers deal with Sportservice/Trench must've included the Lions as well as they are one of the few (only?) NFL teams to have stadium pennants from that era...though not as many as the Tigers. Has anyone seen 1940-50's era football pennants with other stadiums besides Briggs? I know there's a Soldier Field pennant, but with no reference to the Bears on it. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

[perezfan]

Great info, Domer! That has to be the reason for the Tigers pennants being so prevalent.... Many thanks!

And Rob, you are absolutely right! I cannot think of any other Football Team (besides the Lions) who featured their stadium on so many pennants. Or on any at all, for that matter. The Bears had one with a portion of Wrigley Field visible, but it was not nearly as detailed as the Briggs Stadium pennants.

That's a great Baseball-Football connection that seems rather obvious, now that you've pointed it out!

[MK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Great info, Domer! That has to be the reason for the Tigers pennants being so prevalent.... Many thanks!

And Rob, you are absolutely right! I cannot think of any other Football Team (besides the Lions) who featured their stadium on so many pennants. Or on any at all, for that matter. The Bears had one with a portion of Wrigley Field visible, but it was not nearly as detailed as the Briggs Stadium pennants.

That's a great Baseball-Football connection that seems rather obvious, now that you've pointed it out!

I think this is the Bears pennant with a portion of Wrigley Field visible.