Hey, pennant guys

[ser1979]

Maybe disapproving parent is related to slightly overweight Tiger....

[perezfan]

Slightly disapproving Tiger Parent looks like his son broke curfew and had beer breath.

Overweight Tiger just looks mean, and ready to bite your head off if you say or do the wrong thing. Let’s call that one the PMS-ing ex-wife Tiger.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Overweight Tiger just looks mean, and ready to bite your head off if you say or do the wrong thing. Let’s call that one the PMS-ing ex-wife Tiger.

All I see is a white mustache and beard. Santa Claws.

[perezfan]

��

[perezfan]

Aw come on… not fair to Santa! I’ve never seen him irate like that.

Look at the glare in those eyes… the outraged look when your wife first discovers that you forgot to do the dishes, and then finds a receipt for something expensive you bought on eBay.

It’s an unmistakeable look… I’m positive that the artist was a married man and drew from his experience.

[thetahat]

I think this came with a box of Frosted Flakes

[perezfan]

It’s grrrrrrreat!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Cool pennant. Not many dated pennants from the 1930s. Which raises a question. Why is it that there are so few identifiable pennants from the 1920s? Seems like there are many more from the teens than the decade that followed. It appears that it didn’t pick back up until the mid 30s.

Mark? Domer?

Well Greg, that is a fine observation; and I had wondered about that as well....

I think it's a combination of several factors. First, the Great Depression probably didn't help any. Not only were less people attending ballgames in the 1930s, they were buying less consumer goods in general. Money was tight. Advertisers used pennants to help sell all kinds of products. It's no surprise then that the single most common pennant of the late 1930s was the BF3 mini pennant. It could be made so cheaply, advertisers gave them away as promotional items. They were so collectible, apparently everyone forgot about the full size and oversize pennants that had dominated the first two decades of the 20th century.

Second, and this was likely the biggest reason, is the absence of children from ballparks until the 1940s, and onward. In the 1910s and 20s, no respectable family would take their kid to a ballpark. It just wasn't done. Kids had to sneak in or watch the action through a knot hole in the fence. So concessionaires, like Charles Shear and Harry M. Stevens, focused more on hot dogs and beer for the men in attendance.

This slowly began to change in the late 1930s and 40s, when ballparks began making a concerted effort to draw ladies and children inside. Not surprisingly, this is about when we see a huge influx in screen printed, 3/4 size pennants, right? It was the ideal souvenir to sell to a kid: it was cheap and its size was suitable to be waved from a dowel without really blocking anyone's view.

The MLB pennants we know surviving from the 1910s were probably made in really small batches. Nothing like the output of Trench, ADFLAG, WGN, etc. by the 1950s. In those days, pennants were more common on collegiate landscapes--not ballparks.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Well Greg, that is a fine observation; and I had wondered about that as well....

I think it's a combination of several factors. First, the Great Depression probably didn't help any. Not only were less people attending ballgames in the 1930s, they were buying less consumer goods in general. Money was tight. Advertisers used pennants to help sell all kinds of products. It's no surprise then that the single most common pennant of the late 1930s was the BF3 mini pennant. It could be made so cheaply, advertisers gave them away as promotional items. They were so collectible, apparently everyone forgot about the full size and oversize pennants that had dominated the first two decades of the 20th century.

Second, and this was likely the biggest reason, is the absence of children from ballparks until the 1940s, and onward. In the 1910s and 20s, no respectable family would take their kid to a ballpark. It just wasn't done. Kids had to sneak in or watch the action through a knot hole in the fence. So concessionaires, like Charles Shear and Harry M. Stevens, focused more on hot dogs and beer for the men in attendance.

This slowly began to change in the late 1930s and 40s, when ballparks began making a concerted effort to draw ladies and children inside. Not surprisingly, this is about when we see a huge influx in screen printed, 3/4 size pennants, right? It was the ideal souvenir to sell to a kid: it was cheap and its size was suitable to be waved from a dowel without really blocking anyone's view.

The MLB pennants we know surviving from the 1910s were probably made in really small batches. Nothing like the output of Trench, ADFLAG, WGN, etc. by the 1950s. In those days, pennants were more common on collegiate landscapes--not ballparks.

Fantastic observation. Makes sense for sure.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Well Greg, that is a fine observation; and I had wondered about that as well....

I think it's a combination of several factors. First, the Great Depression probably didn't help any. Not only were less people attending ballgames in the 1930s, they were buying less consumer goods in general. Money was tight. Advertisers used pennants to help sell all kinds of products. It's no surprise then that the single most common pennant of the late 1930s was the BF3 mini pennant. It could be made so cheaply, advertisers gave them away as promotional items. They were so collectible, apparently everyone forgot about the full size and oversize pennants that had dominated the first two decades of the 20th century.

Second, and this was likely the biggest reason, is the absence of children from ballparks until the 1940s, and onward. In the 1910s and 20s, no respectable family would take their kid to a ballpark. It just wasn't done. Kids had to sneak in or watch the action through a knot hole in the fence. So concessionaires, like Charles Shear and Harry M. Stevens, focused more on hot dogs and beer for the men in attendance.

This slowly began to change in the late 1930s and 40s, when ballparks began making a concerted effort to draw ladies and children inside. Not surprisingly, this is about when we see a huge influx in screen printed, 3/4 size pennants, right? It was the ideal souvenir to sell to a kid: it was cheap and its size was suitable to be waved from a dowel without really blocking anyone's view.

The MLB pennants we know surviving from the 1910s were probably made in really small batches. Nothing like the output of Trench, ADFLAG, WGN, etc. by the 1950s. In those days, pennants were more common on collegiate landscapes--not ballparks.

Great stuff Kyle! And yes it makes sense.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by ser1979

Excited to add this to my collection of Tiger pennants. It's not in the best shape and needs a little cleaning but overall I'm happy to have it, especially since I've never seen one come up for sale before.

Great pickup that's a pretty rare pennant. I love team photo pennants. Is that photo glued on to the front of the pennant or is it fixed from the back?

[Vintagedeputy]

I saw this 1955 Dodgers World Series pennant in a live online auction and the sellers kept remarking about how wonderful the condition was on this vintage pennant. I immediately felt like it was a modern fantasy piece. Anyone ever see this before?

[Domer05]

Your instincts are correct. It's by Mitchell and Ness, ca. 2000s.

And, the auctioneer certainly knows better....

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Your instincts are correct. It's by Mitchell and Ness, ca. 2000s.

And, the auctioneer certainly knows better....

Amazing how many people are "fooled" buy this one. I actually had to contact REA (sometime around 2010) to have this pennant taken down from one of their auctions.

Their consigner had a long-winded story about his father acquiring it at Ebbets Field. Nothing about it looks vintage, so I don't understand why people (who should know better) are continually duped by it.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Your instincts are correct. It's by Mitchell and Ness, ca. 2000s.

And, the auctioneer certainly knows better....

Originally Posted by perezfan

Amazing how many people are "fooled" buy this one. I actually had to contact REA (sometime around 2010) to have this pennant taken down from one of their auctions.

Their consigner had a long-winded story about his father acquiring it at Ebbets Field. Nothing about it looks vintage, so I don't understand why people (who should know better) are continually duped by it.

The auction was one of these live Facebook group auctions, and it was a couple that I had never seen before or had never participated in their sales. I was 99% sure it was a modern piece, but since I didn’t have absolute certainty, I didn’t say anything during the sale. I saw it when they first brought it up and then I left the sale for a bit and when I came back, it had been sold already. I believe it sold for about $155.

I actually can’t fault the auctioneers but so much because they try to sell so many different things that they come across that they aren’t well-versed in much of anything. There are often times where I get really good deals on stuff because the seller just isn’t knowledgeable enough about the item that they’re selling. I now know that this is definitely a modern piece, so I’m going to message the seller and hopefully they’ll do the right thing and let the buyer out of their bid.

Edited to add: I just spoke with the seller and told them that it was a modern piece and they thanked me very much and said that they had bought it as a vintage piece and didn’t know so they were going to contact the buyer and cancel the sale.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

My favorite Tiger is the Slightly Disapproving Parent Tiger

Spot on description!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

The auction was one of these live Facebook group auctions, and it was a couple that I had never seen before or had never participated in their sales. I was 99% sure it was a modern piece, but since I didn’t have absolute certainty, I didn’t say anything during the sale. I saw it when they first brought it up and then I left the sale for a bit and when I came back, it had been sold already. I believe it sold for about $155.

I actually can’t fault the auctioneers but so much because they try to sell so many different things that they come across that they aren’t well-versed in much of anything. There are often times where I get really good deals on stuff because the seller just isn’t knowledgeable enough about the item that they’re selling. I now know that this is definitely a modern piece, so I’m going to message the seller and hopefully they’ll do the right thing and let the buyer out of their bid.

Edited to add: I just spoke with the seller and told them that it was a modern piece and they thanked me very much and said that they had bought it as a vintage piece and didn’t know so they were going to contact the buyer and cancel the sale.

Nice job! You did the right thing and so did the AH, as the buyer paid about $125 too much.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

The auction was one of these live Facebook group auctions, and it was a couple that I had never seen before or had never participated in their sales. I was 99% sure it was a modern piece, but since I didn’t have absolute certainty, I didn’t say anything during the sale. I saw it when they first brought it up and then I left the sale for a bit and when I came back, it had been sold already. I believe it sold for about $155.

I actually can’t fault the auctioneers but so much because they try to sell so many different things that they come across that they aren’t well-versed in much of anything. There are often times where I get really good deals on stuff because the seller just isn’t knowledgeable enough about the item that they’re selling. I now know that this is definitely a modern piece, so I’m going to message the seller and hopefully they’ll do the right thing and let the buyer out of their bid.

Edited to add: I just spoke with the seller and told them that it was a modern piece and they thanked me very much and said that they had bought it as a vintage piece and didn’t know so they were going to contact the buyer and cancel the sale.

That's a good result and auctioneer has built some good will for the future. For reference, I believe that Mitchell and Ness had a series of these pennants with the year screen printed on the spine. Here's another example.

[thetahat]

For future reference, I don’t know of any vintage pennants with anything screened onto a stitched-on spine (like the year on these pennants).

[thetahat]

On the subject of Tigers pennants, a heads-up, this one isn’t vintage to 1968. Should be obvious to many of us but this tends to fetch a vintage price, like some of those M&Ns bring discussed …

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33553649052...mis&media=COPY

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

For future reference, I don’t know of any vintage pennants with anything screened onto a stitched-on spine (like the year on these pennants).

There are a few.... Cardinals for sure, and I'm pretty sure St. Louis Browns as well. I have one that's 100% legit, but it's stashed away. Will post a pic when I find it.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

On the subject of Tigers pennants, a heads-up, this one isn’t vintage to 1968. Should be obvious to many of us but this tends to fetch a vintage price, like some of those M&Ns bring discussed …

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33553649052...mis&media=COPY

Stellar pictures.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There are a few.... Cardinals for sure, and I'm pretty sure St. Louis Browns as well. I have one that's 100% legit, but it's stashed away. Will post a pic when I find it.

You’re referring to the “grommet” pennants? Yes but those don’t have spines, just a screened-on strip. I was referring to a stitched spine (i.e. a separate piece of material sewn on).

[thetahat]

Here are Cardinals and Browns with the year … I have seen Cards with 1937 and 1938. No other dated Browns.

[perezfan]

I swear I have a non-grommet version. Now I’ll have to dig it out.

Stay tuned!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I swear I have a non-grommet version. Now I’ll have to dig it out.

Stay tuned!

Get digging. I’m skeptical.

and I can’t wait to see who’s “right.” (I post in another forum that used to have a guy munching popcorn emoji. It would be perfect for this.) 🍿

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by thetahat

For future reference, I don’t know of any vintage pennants with anything screened onto a stitched-on spine (like the year on these pennants).

We can both be right! I am merely saying that I don’t know of any such pennants. I can’t possibly claim that there are none in existence …

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Get digging. I’m skeptical.

and I can’t wait to see who’s “right.” (I post in another forum that used to have a guy munching popcorn emoji. It would be perfect for this.) 🍿

Make a giant batch of popcorn, as this could take some time. But it will happen!!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Make a giant batch of popcorn, as this could take some time. But it will happen!!

If it’s a Browns pennant I might need CPR …

[thetahat]

Made with 8% Real Pennant!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25660950268...mis&media=COPY

[perezfan]

While digging around for the "dated spine" pennant, I found a few "rare birds" that I thought I'd share. Nice to re-discover these...

[perezfan]

More...

[perezfan]

And lastly, the elusive Dated 1938 Cardinals Pennant with sewn spine...

[ooo-ribay]

Well, I’ll be….

Only in the Steinberg collection, does the stuff above ^^^ get relegated to Rubbermaid tubs.

[thetahat]

Mark - great pennants! That 1938 Cardinals is awesome! Truly a rarity.

[bocca001]

Great stuff, Mark. I especially like the red Browns pennant and the Reds pennant.

Feel free to open more bins and take more pictures.

[Hankphenom]

This might seem like a silly question, but have any of you big-time pennant guys ever seen one with the stick it came with? Obviously, removing the stick makes everything easier down the line, but I would still think you'd see some in the original purchased form from time to time, but I don't think I ever have.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This might seem like a silly question, but have any of you big-time pennant guys ever seen one with the stick it came with? Obviously, removing the stick makes everything easier down the line, but I would still think you'd see some in the original purchased form from time to time, but I don't think I ever have.

Here’s one. This full-size pennant was made with no spine - I’ve seen other examples - and the wide end was stapled onto the dowel. Very strange but this is how it was.

[MK]

Mark-
You have better stuff packed away in tubs than 90% of collectors have on their walls. Thanks for the peak.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This might seem like a silly question, but have any of you big-time pennant guys ever seen one with the stick it came with? Obviously, removing the stick makes everything easier down the line, but I would still think you'd see some in the original purchased form from time to time, but I don't think I ever have.

Funny...I have a handful of dowel rods sitting on a dresser in my spare room. Have picked up a few pennants with them over the years and never knew what to do with the sticks...but can't bring myself to get rid of them.

[perezfan]

Thanks Rob, Marc, Mike and Greg...

Regarding the sticks.... I agree with Hank that they are surprisingly few and far between. You'd think a lot more would have survived along with the pennants. Like Rob, I have saved a few though...

In the '40s-50s, many of them came with a red or green bamboo cane that had a curved handle. In the '60s, they pretty much exclusively used a plain dowel rod. I imagine the dowel rod was far quicker/easier to insert because it is smooth... it must have been annoying to slide the bamboo cane into the spine, as it would inevitably get caught in there more than a few times.

Can't even remember the last time I went to a game and saw vendors marching up and down the aisles with hoards of pennants and other souvenirs. It's now relegated to food and drinks, but the memories remain!

[ser1979]

I have this 34 tiger pennant that came as a walking cane. There is no spine on the pennant as the long end is sandwiched between the metal tube.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ser1979

I have this 34 tiger pennant that came as a walking cane. There is no spine on the pennant as the long end is sandwiched between the metal tube.

And if I’m not mistaken, that’s made of a silky material, correct?

I have the standard version, felt with spine and two-colored tassels.

Weird thing is, that exact lineup was never used in all of 1934.

[ooo-ribay]

Best thread on the entire internet?

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Best thread on the entire internet?

100%

The Steinberg Rubber Maid Collection is something else.

[ser1979]

The pennant is made of silk which makes it somewhat difficult to display. I also believe there is another version of the silk kind out there where Cochrane's name is spelled wrong?

I've also never seen the non-silk version you have. If you ever decide to part ways with it let me know so I can decide what kid doesn't really need to go to college, lol.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

100%

The Steinberg Rubber Maid Collection is something else.

Top to bottom, who made the 14 pennants from the Rubbermaid Collection?

I especially like the Athletics and the giant lurking behind the Capitol.

[Fballguy]

A cautionary tale for those inclined to clean pennants. Someone regrets it.

If it’s pre-1970, just don’t.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20488366037...mis&media=COPY

[Huck]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

well, i’ll be….

only in the steinberg collection, does the stuff above ^^^ get relegated to rubbermaid tubs.

lol!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

A cautionary tale for those inclined to clean pennants. Someone regrets it.

If it’s pre-1970, just don’t.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20488366037...mis&media=COPY

Been there...looks like it was soaked too long in Oxyclean. The dye bleeds through the cracks in the screenprinting.