Wow ! the cost of finding out values, Is It Wasted $$

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Posted By: rand

$17.99 monthly membership $179.90 yearly membership

the above figures are VCP prices.

SMR is $100 a year with a PSA membership

Is this service really worth it? I figure it out the old fashioned way, some research and ask some questions. With the given economy, i can buy a great card or two for $180.

How about all the shilling in auctions, are the prices reality???

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Considering I've never spent $179 for a single card before, it seems to me like a waste of money. I've come up with my own way for determining values ... I look at the average eBay BIN price and divide it by two!

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Posted By: JDRUM

As for the reality, I don't know. It is reporting recorded prices. Are they all "arms length" transactions, I don't know. I would say that if you are an active buyer and buy a lot of cards the data can be very useful for comparative purposes.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

In the end, doesn't one have to decide what a card is worth to THEM? Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and if I want a card badly enough, I'm not going to concern myself with someone else's judgment of what that card is worth.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Personally, NO, not worth it. Spend $180 on a T206 HOFer, ungraded. Then, in a few years, you'll be much happier that you bought the card, instead of subscribing to something ethereal.

And there's not that much shilling, but a bit. So watch eBay auctions, and the traditional auctions, be one of the underbidders a few times on whatever it is that interests you, then you'll get a feel for what the market prices are.

I am in favor of spending the dollars every year, or every other year, for the Standard Catalog, that is a fine publication.

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Posted By: ErikV

Waste of money? I dunno. I use them. Simply
put these services provide consumers additional
information to make an educated and sound decision
as to the current market value of an item. Granted,
some of these services are better than others. I'm
one who believes in doing my homework and gathering
as much information before I make any purchase -
especially for an occasional large purchase!

ErikV

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Posted By: Steve

I also don't need or use VCP.

Is it $ wasted? Not for many that do use it I suppose.

Steve

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

it is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it !

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Posted By: davidcycleback

How much you pay depends on how others price it. Competing bidders, or lack thereof, and their ideas of value have direct effect on the amount you write on the check. Further, people's 'willing to pay' numbers are derived, in part, from the sales and auctions prices they have observed. Even a collector who is conscious of willing to pay more or less than the going rate is conscious of the going rate.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't subscribe to VCP, but the free sections are very useful to me. I'm not so much interested in the value of a card as I'll determine myself how much I want to pay for something. I prefer cards to be ungraded anyway, but I like that I can go to VCP just to see if something exists or to pull up a list of available cards for a certain player.

I do see how it can be a valuable tool for collectors of graded cards and flippers/dealers.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

I can't speak to the value of VCP since I don't subscribe to it, but as far as PSA goes, you get six free submissions with your annual fee, and this year, they gave all members a coffee table-sized book "Collecting Sports Legends".

All-in-all, at least in my opinion, you get your money back and then some with PSA.


Steve

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Posted By: leon

I guess for all transperancy I should say that Bobby (VCP) is an advertiser. I think most folks know that anyway, though his banner is only on the BST side of things.
My last statement about ONLY relying on a guide is what I meant to say....however, I would be remiss if I didn't also say that I feel, a great majority of prices, are accurate. My comment was meant more so that people will keep their eyes open, no matter what. If you do much collecting, or buying and selling, then VCP will pay for itself multiple times over the course of a year. It has saved me much more than that....best regards

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Posted By: Rob D.

And there's not that much shilling, but a bit.

Frank,

How do you know this is true?

Thanks.

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Posted By: Al

I think this issue revolves around what you collect, how much you pay for cards and how much information are you willing to pay for. I believe VCP gives me plenty of bang for buck. In addition to looking up cards, I have created several "want" lists, which, when a card comes up at a bunch of different places, I get an email telling me about it. This saves a TON of searching. Additionally, I can create my own collection list, which shows me trends in sales patterns to give me a general idea of market conditions. VCP is really the way to go for me.

SMR is really a useless rag. True, when you re-up you get 6 free submssions, this assumes you are a raw collector, otherwise you'd have to be a crack-out and submit person to get value from the freebies. I've not gotten the coffee table book, but I understand it is very well done. I think the SMR values stated over and over AD NAUSEUM, year after year after year, are simply not valid. Try as I might to bring this to the highest person in PSA, it has done no good, nada, zip, zero. It is sad to read how they tout about "scouring" sales, auctions, blah, blah, but I see almost little change in the set I am primarily interested in, which is the 55 Topps baseball set. Year after weary year, the SMR has shown card #3, Art Fowler in a PSA 8 to have a value of $80, GL finding one for less than a grand. This is just one example in the set, there are many others.

With VCP, I believe there are two levels of membership, Gold and Silver. I only go for the Silver option. While VCP is not the be all, end all to information, what is available in VCP is clearly light-years ahead of the rather dubious, if not down right useless data found in SMR. One would think they would really improve in this area, but I've seen almost no viable changes to their publication in a long time.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rob, you're going to get sued. Shilling? Are you kidding me? Of course not. Especailly not on the raw cards.

As for VCP, I figure it probably saves me about 10K a year. Granted certain of the prices are inaccurate due to shill bidding creating a false prior sales price, but still, it is very helpful. Like when I see a card on BST for x price and go to VCP and see that it has been sold twice in the past couple years for 15% less -- and I know not to pay the asking price and instead wait for the inevitable price decreases in 5 hours and then again in 10 hours.

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Posted By: JimB

VCP has saved me $1000s of dollars on both the buying and selling end. It is an invaluable resource. It is susceptible to the various flaws present in ebay and other auctions, but in general it is an incredibly valuable resource. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
JimB

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

We think Vintage Card Prices is an invaluable tool, and one we would view
as a bargain at twice the price.

Nearly all of the items that we buy are from auctions and/or on E Bay.

Vintage Card Prices has saved us thousands of dollars when negotiating
with BIN Sellers.

Whilst we do not purchase a large number of cards, the average of price of
the cards we purchased in 2008 exceeded $850 and more than half the
cards purchased cost more than $2000. A 10% savings on one card
more than pays for the price of subscription.

We have long-recognized that knowledge is power. We are certain that VCP has
provided us with a competitive advantage or at very least provides us with knowledge
equal to our competitors.

If you are going to seriously collect rare baseball cards in top condition Vintage Card Prices is essential.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Rob D.

Wow, I couldn't see Bobby's lips moving at all.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Rob, you ask how I KNOW...


I don't know, I believe. And if you don't, then I can't assemble sufficient proof so you'll know. Even if some guy admits to bidding on his card once because he was afraid it would sell too low, that would be a belief thing, do you believe he's truthful. Only way you'd KNOW is for you to do it yourself and remember it.

For me, I've seen a few auctions on eBay that seemed a bit screwy to me, some I found myself, some that folks here have posted about. I don't think all or most or half of old baseball card eBay auctions have a shill. But I also don't think that none of them ever have had a shill. How could you believe that it has never happened?? Any proof for that??

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Posted By: Rob D.

Take a deep breath, big fella.

And there's not that much shilling, but a bit.

You didn't post that you thought this. You posted it as a statement of fact. I simply asked how you know such as fact.

You've now made clear that it was your opinion. Thanks for clarifying that everything you believe/think is not necessarily a fact.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What is the deal, Rob???

There is shilling. Sounds like you want there to be some declaration that there isn't. This reminds me of someone who doesn't believe in alcohol or in drinking... I'm here to tell you that alcohol and drinking exists. And so does shilling. I think it. I know it as well as I can.

What about you? Do you think it exists? Do you know it does, or know it doesn't??? Take two big, deep breaths and answer, please sir.

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Posted By: Tim

Speaking from experience:

VCP is a great service for the new collector to vintage cards. Granted the current subscription price is almost twice what it was when I first signed up, however I still feel the amount of research time it saves and the money I save with the information through the course of the year, it is well worth the money.

As mentioned before the "Want List" feature is great. That added insurance to keep me from possibly missing a once a year card I really want is worth the money.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Frank, I apologize. I did a poor job of making clear what I was asking so you could understand.

You stated in the form of a fact, And there's not that much shilling, but a bit.

I simply asked -- at least I thought it was a simple question -- how you could know such a fact (again, because you didn't post this as your opinion but rather as a fact. Sorry to be redundant, just trying to be clear).

It turns out that you mistakenly posted your opinion as a fact. You did a fine job acknowledging that when I asked. Thank you.

As to whether I think there is shilling: It's not really relevant to what I asked you, and if you've ever read -- and understood -- previous posts on the topic of shilling, you would know that I think it's a serious problem in our hobby. Note that I'm giving an opinion and not trying to pass it off as a fact.

As to your alcohol reference, that's something else not relevant to this post. I can understand, however, why you want to change the direction of the conversation.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

BS Rob... just BS...


I asked you in the 4:52 post, and you didn't answer in your responding 4:57 post.

You had to be asked twice, and when you finally half-answer you say it isn't relevant.


And the alcohol / drinking wasn't subject changing... WHAT do you KNOW, what do you think??? I think we still have folks up on the International Space Station. At 5:33 local time I was in my back yard to see it, my kids think I'm nutz for going out in the twilight to see the ISS or the Space Shuttle... I didn't see it this evening. Don't know why. I'll look again at 7:07, its next local pass. I'll be out looking even if the Super Bowl is at an exciting moment. I think it is still up there, I don't KNOW. I think that the light I'll see to the NW at 23 degrees above the horizon will be the ISS.... I think I'm 54 years old, I don't think my Mom, the hospital folks, and vital statistics have played games with my birth date... but I don't KNOW. So I know I'm 54, and think I'm 54, but may well not KNOW it. There's shilling. And I don't understand why you're so fired up about whatever it is you're upset about. What is the deal??? Please explain or cease fussing about it.

After all, everything posted up here is what we think or really believe.

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Posted By: Rob D.

I think I'll "cease fussing," podna, lest to provoke any more rants like the above.

But, honestly, thank you for clarifying that your statement "And there's not that much shilling, but a bit" was only your opinion and not a fact.

There is a difference. Really.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

VCP--Could not live without it. If you collect a large number of sets, it becomes an invaluable tool. Best thing for the vintage card collector in years.

For PSA their card values not of much use but the pops are--the pop info alone makes it a critical tool...and if you don't subscribe to the SMR you might miss some great articles abbout a New Jersey collector.

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Posted By: Tim

I've been following this post and I find your brow beating of Frank over his post absurd. It was obvious he wasn't stating fact, but rather his opinion and you want to call him out when it wasn't even relevant to the discussion at hand.

There is already an air to this board that keeps many from posting, if you're going to begin policing peoples intent to their posts and putting everyoneo under the microscope it won't help to broaden this boards particiaption.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Rand asked 2 questions...

1- is the service worth it?
2- what about shilling, are the prices real?


Now I don't see back up there where anyone, not even the Bruces, proclaimed that their answers were fact based, or opinion.

Seems like most folks took a stab at question 1, and a pass on question 2.

Rob, you said "I apologize", but after reading and rereading the rest it sure seems (opinion) that it was not sincere. And you didn't answer either of Rand's questions.

Finally, you are mistaken if you really thought I misunderstood your question. What I don't understand is what your hangup is about the existence of shilling. If someone who's sold a few cards on eBay has told me that he got a friend to bid on one of his baseball card lots once, I've still got to believe him I can't know for certain.

So what if someone KNOWS, to your definition, that shilling has occurred, what then? And why didn't you answer any of Rand's questions? Why did everyone else only answer question 1, and not 2??

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Are the prices real?

In the vast majority of the cases-well over 99% they are real. Very occasionally there are shill bids--does not change value of what Bobby offers. If you know the pop and the smr, should be able to approximate fair value.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Duck, Jim, Rob leads with his right, mean left hook to follow.

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Posted By: Robert Dixon

To me it is. As a new collector, I think VCP has saved me from getting ripped off more than once. Besides, the site is just fun to browse through.

On another note: I agree with Tim. I come to this site every day, and it gets a little frustrating seeing some of you old timers textually assault each other.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Tim,

Actually, the extent to which shilling exists is very relevant to Rand's questions. Whether you think that -- pick a number -- 10 percent, 20 percent, 30 percent or more of eBay and other auctions are shilled would greatly impact how valuable you think a service that reports those results really is.

To me, Frank's statement "And there's not that much shilling, but a bit" was presented as a statement of fact. My first post simply asked how he could know that. I thought it was a pretty innocent question.

You read Frank's statement as being his opinion. I didn't. If it had been a minor point, I probably wouldn't have asked for him to clarify. But given that it is very germane to the original post, I thought it important to point out the difference between fact and opinion.

I will make a point not to question any of Frank's subsequent posts.

< Note to self: If Frank says it, it must be true. >>

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Posted By: Tim

Edited as I was combining two of Franks post.

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Posted By: Tim

Rob D.

From reading Franks post do you really think he felt that what he was stating was undeniable fact? Or do you think he was just stating his opinion?

You're question may have seemed innocent enough to yourself, but simply asking it was accusitory in nature. And again I'll say it wasn't neccessary.

There are so many gray areas in vintage collecting that if we begin to take everyone to task for each statement without a disclaimer of opinion versus fact this board will dry up to nothing.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

10, 20, 30--how about one one hundredth of 1%--this is an opinion--it could be two one hundredths of one percent.

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Posted By: MIkeU

Personal opinion is that VCP is worth every single penny. Even if you only buy $500 to $1,000 worth of cards a year, it is likely going to save you the price of admission.

As for SMR pricing, IMHO, it is worthless. Now if you get value from the articles (cool New Jersey Collectors) and the free grading, then there is value. However, if you are buying a membership only or primarily for the price guide, then save yourself the money.

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Posted By: Rob D.

And there's not that much shilling, but a bit.

Frank,

How do you know this is true?

Thanks.


Tim,

If this question is accusitory (sic), then you're right: This board will dry up to nothing.

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Posted By: Tim

Really Rob, you think that Frank saying that there is some shilling but not a lot is some declaration of fact about the exact amount of shilling in the hobby?

You could have asked...

Frank you stated that you think only a small amount of bids are shilled thus effecting pricing websites, What percentage of bids would you say are shilled and how do they effect overall published pricing?

Frank you stated that you think some bids are shilled, do you have any proof that only a few are or that not all are shilled?

Regardless of how you ask the question however, you attacked Frank on a side point to anything he was really trying to say which is a cheap shot in my opinion. If you hadn't focused on his statement no one else would have ever given it any more thought.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Tim,

First my question was accusitory (sic.)

Then, I "attacked" Frank.

I think I'll bow out now before you file a manslaughter charge.

Take care.

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Posted By: Tim

Now youre just being silly. You hide behind the guise that your question was just to clarify and not an incrimination of Frank. You base your arguments on specific words and give no weight to the substance. You try to hide behind your meekness when it just comes across as smugness.

Do I need to clarify anything about my fact or opinion with that last sentence?

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Posted By: Scott Fandango

not knowing the past sale figures of a card you are about to buy is not too wise....

you have to have a basis to start from, you cant say "yeah i like the card so i will spend $500"...

what if the card has only sold for $300 the past three sales, but you didnt know that because they were 4 months ago....now you payed $200 more than you should have....

VCP is invaluable as a frequent buyer of cards...it also gives you the date so you can gauge how often they come up...

As people have pointed out, not all sales are legit, and not all sales show up on VCP...however that does not negate the sales that are shown...

its usually good to throw out the high sale and the low sale anyway when trying to judge the value of a card....

I incorporate the Standard Catalog, VCP and SMR and i feel they are all important tools when purchasing graded cards...

to not use all the tools at your disposable certainly will cost you more in the long haul than $160....

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Posted By: rand

Rob D, Rand here, i re-read your posts in this thread, i didnt read an opinion from you about my topic. if you have thoughts on either question please articulate them. if not, kindly refrain from highjacking the topic. personally, i do not know how much shilling goes on, i mentioned it as it is a legitimate part of the equation.

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Posted By: Al

I wonder how diluted the pop report has become. If we are to make the fair assumption that "x" number of cards from almost any collection are crack-outs, or will become crack-outs, how is PSA to know how to handle pop data?

To be more clear...a person cracks out a card, this card exists as a PSA 7, but the owner thinks it could bump to a PSA 8. The card gets cracked out and is submitted raw. If the card becomes graded as a PSA 7, there are now TWO PSA 7s of that card. If the card gets graded as a PSA 8, the original PSA 7 still exists, and the pop of the 8s has just increased by one.

This is an issue only when a PSA tag is cracked and sumbitted to PSA, if it's an SGC to a PSA tag, then there is no issue with the increase in the pop report regardless of the grade. In essence, the card has become cloned. I have not a remote clue how PSA could solve this "problem".

If cards are submitted for the half-point consideration, then I'm sure the original grade of the submitted card is reduced by PSA graders (or whomever in PSA), and the .5 is increased.

As for shilling, I got dizzy reading that stuff...caveat emptor.

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Posted By: JimB

Of course there is shill bidding. How pervasive it is, is mere conjecture. Due to shilling there are some false numbers on VCP. If you have a sense of the sellers, you get to know which ones are trustworthy. Just yesterday I was going through some recent sales on T206 HOFs. There was one seller reporting #s at about 30-40% higher than anybody else on virtually every card he sold. I just disregarded all of his sales and made a note not to bid in his auctions.

VCP can help combat falling prey to shillers in this way as well. One has to learn how to use the information intelligently.
JimB

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Posted By: CLAUDE

I believe you can now get a 24 hour pass to VCP for $3.99.

-Claude

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Posted By: Mark L

The pop reports have limited use. It is revealing if it says that only a couple of cards have been graded. Otherwise, it is something of a guess. The pop reports won't be definitive until the grading companies post a scan of each card that is graded and encapsulated, so that we can identify those cards that have been resubmitted ad infinitum. Of course, this is not likely to happen. In the end, the prices realized may be more informative.

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Posted By: Jason

I think it would be a great tool for type card collectors or high end cards of popular sets.

Its not just the past prices but you can also get an idea of how often cards come up for auction.

That said, I don't subscribe to the service but I only collect T205's in specific grades and I know what they cost. Of course, I have taken advantage of the one day subscription (nice touch btw) to get a look at a couple values of cards when I'm unsure.

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Posted By: marshall barkman

I must say Rob D that for someone that contantly seeks out opinion or exploits other people's opinion that you really have none . Bro you should go into politics. As for schill bidding everyone knows it does exist and VCP can be misleading. The best way to figure out expensive cards is the pop report because if some of the top five set builders can use the card in a upgrade then watch out because the fireworks will fly. Their is nothing wasted about finding out values of cards if the information is available. It truly comes down to how much you spend. If you spend five figures a year on cards or more then you would be foolish not to have all the necessary information in order to buy correctly. By the way is Larry Fitzgerald a monster or what? That dude can ball baby.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

It isn't a "for sale" listing. I don't know how many times that has to be said before people get it. If the card is scarce, no guide is going to peg a price on it and you will have to pay what the seller is willing to take for the card.

VCP's value is directly related to the number of cards available from any given issue. If you are collecting a set that has lots and lots of cards selling regularly, it is useful. If not, it isn't since there either won't be any pricing information (no sales) or the information will be very spotty.

SMR is worthless. People on 'ludes should not price cards. It goes from mailbox to trash can inside of ten minutes.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Martin Neal

I always donate my SMR to the local card shop. Occasionally, I will read what Joe says for the heck of it. It's only worth is the advertising revenue it brings to Psa.