Jeff Kent HOF? Alomar? Biggio ??

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H)

Jeff Kent just retired. I never felt he was that good (mostly a visceral judgment) but I know his stats make a strong case for the Hall of Fame.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kentje01.shtml

Kent won an MVP (his teammate Barry Bonds deserved it more) and is the all-time HR leader at his position, Second Base. Only Hornsby and Lajoie have more RBIs among 2Bs. His power numbers which are his most compelling argument came from the high-octane 1990s and 00's but there is no reason to believe his performance was enhanced. Although he played in San Fransisco, he is not identified in the Mitchell Report as a steroid use rand has spoken out in favor of testing.

http://sportsbybrooks.com/mitchell-report-posted-clemens-highlights-noted-15022

Two other second baseman will come up before him on the Hall of Fame ballot, Robbie Alomar (2010) and then Craig Biggio (2013), http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/visit/hof_weekend/ ,

Alomar and Biggio are more conventional 2nd Base HOF candidates: they got on base, scored alot and fielded the position at a gold glove level.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

Alomar was the superior player: hitting 300 lifetime winning an MVP and making more All-Star teams. But, he didn't stick around to get to get 3000 hits as Biggio did. Alomar's reputation is also a bit worse because of the incident where, near the end of his career, he spit at an umpire.

Biggio, meanwhile. was a throwback who played his whole career with one team and toughed out 300 Hits and broke the "modern record" for being hit by a pitch.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HBP_career.shtml
He is also a big favorite of Bill James and the SABR gang because of his his high on-base percentage.

Conclusion:
I rate Alomar first of the three followed by Biggio. I think that all three are Hall of Fame worthy. Alomar and Biggio rate among the upper 1/3 of the Hall of Famers and Kent makes the middle third. In terms of position there are 19 players who were primarily 2Bs:

Carew*
Collins
Doerr
Evers
Fox
Frisch
Gehringer
Gordon
Charlie Grant*
Billy Herman
Hornsby
Lajoie
Mazeroski
McPhee*
Joe Morgan
Jackie Robinson*
Sandberg
Schoendienst

Four of these players cannot be considered simply as second baseman: Carew (who played first and DHed a lot); Charlie Grant (a Black Pre-Negro League star); Bid McPhee (the only 19th century 2B on the list, who played primarily in the American Association); Jackie Robinson (broke the color barrier in the majors played only 10 seasons)

Of the remaining 15 Alomar and Biggio place somewhere in the top tier, with Collins, Morgan, Lajoie, Hornsby, and Gehringer. Kent is in the next group with players like Frisch, Doerr, Sandberg, and Gordon and clearly ahead of players like Mazeroski, Lazzeri, Herman, and Schoendienst.

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Posted By: keyway

I hope Alomar never gets in. He is not worthy and neither are the other two. Were getting more and more mediocre players in the hall. It will become a joke like the Football hall of fame. These guys were not top of the line players. I don't understand how so many unworthy players seem to be getting in the hall the last few years.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

You and I must have different definitions of "mediocre" players.

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Posted By: Jason L

I hope Alomar falls off the ballot very early on.
talented, but he was just garbage.

I know the HOF is just about stats, but for me, I like to see our idols have a little more than strong performances. Character means something.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Well, there goes Ty Cobb, Cap Anson, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry and Juan Marichal out of the Hall.

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Posted By: James Feagin

If an umpire said to me "sit down you spic faggot", like Hirschbeck allegedly said to Alomar, I would have spit in an umpire's face as well. Robby Alomar was a great all around player who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: Jason

We collect cards of certain players that used to beat the crap out of umpires.

Alomar was arguably the best ball player in baseball the years the Blue Jays won the World Series back to back.

All three would be okay with me if they were inducted.

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Posted By: Jason L

"Well, there goes Ty Cobb, Cap Anson, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry and Juan Marichal out of the Hall."
-Fine with me.

James,....alledgedly.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H)

Well we could have a Hall of really admirable people who played professional baseball. People who did heroic things on or off the field, or who you might want to mentor your kids but not necessarily great players. . . .

How about:



Overcoming significant Physical obstacles or limitations:

Jim Abbott

Pete Gray

"Dummy" Hoy

Ron Santo



Model Citizens/Ball Players

Deacon White

Buck O'Neill

Dale Murphy

Curt Flood

J. M. Ward



Players who voluntarily sacrificed some (or all) of their careers/or lives for their country:



Hank Gowdy (first player to enlist WWI; served in both WWs)

Hank Greenberg (early enlistee in WWII)

Ted Williams

Christy Mathewson



Players who heroically faced down and overcame great prejudice

Jackie Robinson

Hank Aaron

Hank Greenberg





Corrected per Rhett's observation below,

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I don't have any major problems with any of those 3 making it. Since Biggio has the 3000 hit thing going for him it is my opinion that he is in. The other 2 might be on the ballot a few times before they are finally let in. I'll admit Kent's #'s are better than I had remembered them being.
-Rhett

Brian, I think you meant Eddie Grant was killed in WW1, not Gowdy.

Edited to correct crappy spelling

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Posted By: dennis

i think all were great players and deserving of the hall. alomar & biggio are first ballot,kent will eventually get in but it will take about as long as it took sandberg.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Love 'em or hate 'em, Roberto Alomar was a Hall of Fame caliber second baseman who was one of the best all-around players of his generation.

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Posted By: James Todd

I think it's funny that the same people who say Alomar doesn't deserve to be in because of his antics on the field are the same people who spend thousands of dollars on Ty Cobb cards.

Alomar was one of the best second baseman of all time. It is ridiculous to even suggest otherwise. Kent is perhaps the most unique of the three because he hit for power. Kent is definitely a HOFer no question.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Biggio yes.







Alomar (pardon me while I spit), and Kent, no.





Alomar ahead of Schoendienst, maybe after he manages 2000 games, coaches about 2000 more, manages a couple of pennant winners and a World Championship team, and then after he's nice for a while. I'll check back at this thread in 30 years and see if Roberto has done that.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

None of the three should get in. all good players but the hall is for the great players.

Kmac

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Posted By: Jason L

Just to clarify, I don't spend thousands of dollars on Ty Cobb cards
-primarily due to lack of funds, admittedly, but I just want to make sure I am not misrepresented here!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Biggio is a lock with his 3000 hits.

Kent and Alomar will both get in for sure, perhaps not on the first ballot.

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Posted By: steve

Were any of the 3 considered "the man" for a while? Perhaps R. Alomar, but not the others.



Honestly, the HOF needs to be more strict.



But then again I am a Bo Jackson fan - and believe he should be in someone's HOF. That all-star game when he hit a leadoff HR into orbit. Then later the throw to get the dude at the plate from deep right...no hop...perfect strike. That's TALENT that should be rewarded. We may never ever see another Bo Jackson. But we will see another R. Alomar.



Now you're talkin HOF, baby!



steve

added - You're going to put R.Alomar in the hall and not Roger Maris - Come on HOF, even this strict cookie puts in Maris.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

I often think it's overlooked the fact that Biggio came up as a Catcher, switched to 2nd base then to the outfield. He played them all at a high level, I think he would have made the Hall even if he had stayed a catcher.

I am a pirate fan living in Houston and having seen him play his whole career, I have to say he played the game with more heart and guts than any other player I have watched. Great guy too, the city just loves him, he's up there with Hakeem and Earl.

Of the others I think Alomar gets in but Kent does not.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Agree with sentiment of all 3 no. Hall of Fame should be for the greatest of the great--all were very good players for their day but none Hall of Fame worthy--and comparing them with others who bmanaged to get in but bare not Hall of Fame worthy either is not the way to go. I fear Biggio has a chance. Alomar's chances of making it are slim and Kent's are less than remote.

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Posted By: James Todd

Its weird that some of you don't think Alomar is a dead lock. Throughout his entire career, who was a better second baseman than Roberto Alomar? Not only did he hit for power and average, but the guy also won 10 gold gloves. He was a great player all around and by far the best second baseman in the league for over a decade.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

If Roberto Alomar, Craig Biggio and Jeff Kent are not worthy of being in the Hall of Fame, does that mean that Bid McPhee, Bill Mazeroski, Joe Gordon, Bobby Doerr, Billy Herman, Tony Lazzeri and Red Schoendienst were better players? If anybody truly believes that they were, then they must also believe that modern players are not as good as players from distant eras. This seems absurd to me, because in every form of athletic competition that measures speed, agility and strength, modern athletes far outperform their counterparts from the past.

So if this isn't about sheer ability, then what is this exclusionary attitude regarding modern players all about? I believe it's an attempt by some to make the Hall of Fame more exclusive than it actually is. The Hall of Fame has always been "The Hall of Very Good Players." It has never been "The Hall of Truly Great Players." Keeping out Alomar, Biggio and Kent won't change that. But if you want younger fans to appreciate baseball's illustrious history, and to actually care about what Hall of Fame stands for, you have to give modern players the same respect that was accorded their counterparts from earlier eras.

For the Hall of Fame to have any credibility, it has to give equal weight to all eras of baseball, early as well as contemporary (it also needs third basemen, but I won't go into that now). There is simply no evidence that older players were better than modern players. And there certainly isn't any evidence that Alomar, Biggio and Kent were any less talented than at least half the second basemen in Cooperstown ...

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Posted By: john/z28jd

If Alomar doesnt get in first ballot its only because of the spitting incident,hes more than qualified. Look at the runs scored,the amount of walks,a 300 hitter career and 9 times,10 time gold glover,his stolen bases and his success rate at that,he hit for some power(alot for his position),hit .313 in 230 postseason AB's, a 12 time all-star. If he's not a hall of famer based on stats then you might as well take out half the people in ahead of him.

Keeping him out for one incident is pretty harsh although obviously it was a stupid incident,but still,everyone makes mistakes,just ours aren't highlighted on sportscenter for everyone to remember.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the players abilities and the very insightful reference to the meaning of the Hall of Fame for todays young fans. The stars and heroes of today, statistics permitting, should not be held to an even higher standard than those who came before them.
It would also be nice for older fans to let go of the 'everything was better in my day' mush that keeps so many in perpetual nostalgia and re-living their youth.
You know, it just gets old.

Alomar for me was the best, last couple of years not-withstanding. Lock.
Kent goes second and was way underappreciated because he did everything with textbook and classic form for a big guy, making the REALLY hard plays look simply hard-ish. Should-be lock.
Biggio was ok but for me more grit and practiced than great ability......only borderline for me.

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Posted By: Paul

I agree that no one should get into the HOF just because he is better than the worst HOFer at his position. So, no, I wouldn't put Kent, Alomar, and Biggio in just because they're better than Schoendienst or Travis Jackson. But I would put them in because they were each the same caliber player as Frank Frisch and Charlie Gehringer. I've never heard anyone say these guys don't belong. I can't imagine a Hall of Fame without them. And, yes, I'm sure you can make arguments that Frisch and Gehringer were better than Kent, Alomar, and Biggio. But you can make reasonable arguments that Kent, Alomar and Biggio were all better than Frisch and Gehringer, and that's more than enough to qualify them for the Hall in my opinion.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff Kent?? Really--that would be a travesty. I guess Placido Polanco is on his way--Lou Whitaker for sure--how about Mark McLemore. Hitting ahead of Bonds help him you think? I read somewhere he was 2nd all time in strikeouts among second basemen--his defensive range rivals Jerry Adair.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

He hit behind Bonds.

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Posted By: keyway

The Hall of Fame has inducted a lot of players who don't belong. Hell, why not add these three. None belong. Everything has become a numbers game. This many hits, this many wins, etc. Bologna. There are many in the hof on longevity. Do they belong? No. Then there the if factor. Well if he played on this field, or if he played with that team. Doesen't have a dam thing to do with haw great a player is. Look at Banks. Played on some real crap teams but got the job done. Look at mantle, bad legs and playing in a huge park and got the job done. Ruth hitting all those home runs in Yankee stadium with its 600 ft center field. Those are great players. Don't even think these guys are worthy.

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Posted By: D. Bergin

I think the HOF should be limited to 10 players tops........and be housed in the basement of the Cooperstown Public Library. Anybody who doesn't accumulate 4000 hits, 600 HR's, a lifetime batting average of .330, 350 Wins and 4500 Strikeouts should be given a complimentary weekend pass to the HOF at the conclusion of their career and an "Attaboy Champ but you just weren't good enough" from the reigning commissioner of Baseball.

When induction weekend rolls around every year they can have a ceremonial Pledge dusting of the plaques in the basement and trot Willie Mays out to sign autographs at $300 per signature.

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Posted By: Glenn

What Chris said. (Excellent post)

My feeling is that Alomar and Biggio are both first ballot guys and that Kent may take a few years, but I'd bet that all 3 of them will be in 10 years from today.

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Posted By: Jason

Since the spit incident has been mentioned. I believe I saw an interview with Alomar when he came back to Toronto for one of their flashback days and it was mentioned that he and Hirshbeck(sp?) had made peace and Alomar has worked with him at charity shows for his Son's disease.

If they can get past it I don't see why everyone else can't. It's not like he had a bunch of dogs fighting in his basement or something.

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Posted By: Rob

I feel Biggio is a shoe in because I believe 3,000 hits will always be one of those "automatic" entires.

Kent's power numbers relative to his position are astonishing, however they are not outstanding relative to the era.

I don't feel Kent was better than Ryne Sandberg or Roberto Alomar.

I always thought Lou Whitaker was an underrated 2B...no HOFer, but still underrated.

Rob

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Posted By: JB

Yes to all three.........some may have to wait longer to go in , Alomar and Kent..........

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Posted By: peter ullman

While I agree with the sentiment that the Hall of Fame should be reserved for the greatest players of all time...this is no longer the case...as plenty of mediocre players have been admitted in recent years.

That being said...I think all 3 will most likely be admitted at some point...Biggio first ballot...alomar and Kent later.

I watched alomar play in Baltimore for 4 years while I lived there and despite his unfortunate incident...he was an excellent ballplayer!

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Posted By: steve

Perhaps the most BIG TIME record in ALL of sports = single season HR record. How can we possibly talk Kent, Alomar & Biggio without putting in Roger Maris ?

If you ever visit cooperstown, which players "stuff" will you spend more time at? a) Maris, b)Kent, c)Biggio d) Alomar ?

Which player and record has more historical mistique and significance? a)Maris, b) Kent, c)Biggio, d)Alomar

How can you tell the history of baseball without Maris?

Maris should still have the record barring the steroid era !!!

steve

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Maris was a great player for several years, but unfortunately he was also only a so-so player for several years as well. While he has more name recognition than the previously mentioned players, the Hall isn't really a popularity contest (well not in every case at least!) or you would see people like Mattingly already in there. Maris had several incredible seasons, he just doesn't have the CAREER statistics, etc. to warrant being included in Cooperstown. All of this is simply my opinion.
-Rhett

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Posted By: David Goff

Thought players were voted because they were one of the better players during their playing years. They may not be THE best player but were very good. Biggio and Alomar were very good players during their career. Better than any other 2nd baseman during that time frame anyway. They both get in.

Kent will more than likely get in due to his batting, but may be a few ballots down the road.

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Posted By: LenK

Biggio...3000 hits = h.o.f........high on the all-time doubles list

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Alomar - no doubt

Biggio - no doubt

Kent - much doubt

Marty

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Posted By: fkw

100+ RBI / Seasons


Mantle 4 in 18 seasons

Kent 8 in 17 seasons

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Posted By: DJ

"...all good players but the hall is for the great players."...At one point, maybe, but not anymore.

There is one thing that all these players have in common and that they never wore a New York Yankee uniform or a team that has a ravid following. If any of these played a few years in NY garb, we would be singing a different tune.

After all Biggio played his whole career in Houston (I needed to be reminded that they still existed)and Kent and Alomar played for half of the league. Padres? Diamondbacks? Blue Jays?

These guys are all MUCH better than Joe Gordon, but we'll see which lame Yankee gets inducted next year.

Yes, yes and yes.

DJ