Updated to 7 legit Doyle error cards....the rest are a Big ? ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Listed here are the 7 cards of the T206 (Joe) Doyle N. Y. Nat'l variation, that are deemed authentic (original). They are
identified here in their respective collections.......


1.....Senator Richard Russell (he acquired it as a kid in 1910).....PIEDMONT 350

2.....Larry Fritsch (acquired, circa 1980).....PIEDMONT 350

3.....Larry Fritsch (acquired from Bill Huggins in mid-1980's).....PIEDMONT 350

4.....Charlie Conlon (acquired in late 1980's).....PIEDMONT 350

5.....Private collector (acquired in 1987).....PIEDMONT 350

6.....Private collector (acquired in 1999).....PIEDMONT 350

7.....Private collector (acquired in 2000).....PIEDMONT 350



Whatever other Joe Doyle error cards are claimed, remain to be confirmed; regardless, of whether they are graded......
or un-graded.







The Sherry Magie error card, however, is another story. I am surprised that we haven't seen more fakes of this card.
Obviously, the greater difference in $$$$$ value motivates forger's to focus on the Doyle card.
You'd think the Magie card would be an easier candidate for forgery. In fact, one of the best Magie fakes that have
been discovered....was betrayed by it's back. This forger modified a Magee card with a SWEET CAPORAL back. If he
had modified a Magee with a PIEDMONT 150 back, this forgery may not have been detected....as it was that good.


Do not forget....the Magie error card was printed only with a PIEDMONT 150 back.




TED Z

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for the info TED...

good stuff as always!!!

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Posted By: Steve

Can't argue with any of this. PSA needs to get it together.

There is no reason a fake Doyle should get through.


Didn't one of these fakes also get through SGC a few years ago as well?


Steve

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Posted By: Cy

Hi Ted,

Is one of these cards from the Washington D.C. area? Because I have seen one from a collector in the DC area.

Cy

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The SGC graded fake Doyle error card occurred about 8 years ago and was quite a fiasco.
I'm familiar with the details of it; however, I'll leave it to some other poster to post them.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'd rather not say, as I respect the privacy of the current collectors known to have the authentic Doyle error cards.

As the list indicates, I have only identified the collectors of this card that have passed away.

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Posted By: Fred C

Ted,

Great post!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Ted.

I doubt that your thread will have much impact on commercial graders when it comes to Joe Doyle error cards. It is somewhat a faith thing, folks believe what they want to believe. And some folks will believe in that PSA LARRY Doyle POLOR Bear card.

FW

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Posted By: rand

Ted, the 2 private collector cards, did they acquire there from any of the deceased (sp?) collections?

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted, I believe your list includes the private collector who's Doyle came for Lew L. - is that correct?

======================================
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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JON C

This is true.


TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

RAND

The answer to your "?"....is NO.

The above 6 cards are distinct by themselves.


TED Z

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Posted By: Scot

Thanks Ted.

For the record, the PSA population report shows the following J. Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l) populations:

Unknown Back 8
Polar Bear 1

It is possible that legitimate examples were deslabbed and resubmitted to PSA in one or more instances. Thus, it is not clear--beyond the bogus Polar Bear example discussed on the companion thread--that PSA has blown it.

Scot

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted and I were just speaking, and based on that conversation my opinion is there are at least seven genuine Doyles.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Of the....PSA "Unknown Back" 8 graded Doyle error cards....it is my understanding, that at least
one is a forgery. When the current owner of this graded fake was made aware of this, he replied
"I could care less". I guess the're some high-rollers in this hobby, who "frankly don't give a damn"
(to quote Clark Gable).


So, there are at least two graded fakes:

1....this "X" back card

2....the infamous Polar Bear card


Of the remaining 7 PSA graded Doyle error cards, there most likely is redundancy with at least a
couple of them due to re-slabbing. In summary, in my opinion there are at best, only 7 authentic
Joe Doyle error cards in collections at present.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

I believe there is one other legit example in addition to the six Ted mentioned.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is a banner day.....you and I both agree.

Besides the 6 cards I have listed, we can account for at least one more. Although it is graded,
I cannot vouch for it's authenticity until we see it.

Best regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Like Cy, I have seen the "D.C. Doyle," which is raw and believed by its owner to be authentic. Mark

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

MARK

I know of the Doyle you are referring to....and, it is the real thing.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

For those of you who are new to this T206 Joe Doyle error card phenomena......

The theory as to why the Joe "Doyle N.Y. Nat'l" card is so very scarce is quite simple......
when the 350-only Series of T206's was initially issued in late 1909 (or early 1910), some
alert employee at American Litho. Co. (ALC) spotted the "Nat'l" error in this card's caption.
Joe Doyle pitched for the Highlanders and ALC withdrew this card immediately. However, a
few of them got out and did get inserted into Piedmont cigarette packs. Then ALC printed
many Joe Doyle cards with the "Doyle, N.Y." caption.

How many Doyle "Nat'l" cards exist ?

We will never know. But, 100 years later we can only account for 6 (or 7) of them. And
perhaps if we are lucky, another handful of the Doyle error cards are still out there that
eventually will be discovered.



TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Before the Nat'l version was well known, most folks thought that the Doyle hands above head was Larry Doyle.

If the card had errant Nat'l type on it, filing that off of the plate would have been much easier than replacing Nat'l with Amer.


Joe Doyle, the pitcher, was with the American league Highlanders/Yankees 1906 - 1909. In 1910 he was only in 8 games, 3 for New York, then 5 for Cincinnati. His last game was June 25th, 1910... which is about series 350 time. On his way out after 75 major league games... no time for a corrected New York Amer. card. No wonder there wasn't a Cincinnati Nat'l card, either.

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Posted By: JimB

Ted my friend,
Other than politics and Cobb backs, I think we agree on quite a bit. Last conversation on the Cobb back we even moved closer.
Take care,
JimB

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Posted By: Steve

Wouldn't one of the unknown backs be the card that is now the Polor Bear?

If I recall it was once in a 5 slab. Unless it was reviewed and bumped
it has skewed the pop.

Steve

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B

I've come to realize that the Ty Cobb back card was issued much earlier than I originally thought;
therefore, I'm leaning your way. This realization has developed from my knowledge of the Senator
Richard Russell BB card collection on display at the Univ. of Georgia. I purchased many T206's from
his original collection that his Great-Great Grandaughter was selling. She was selling his duplicates.

These cards aroused my curiosity, as they were all Piedmont 350's which included the rare cards
like Lundgren, Dahlen, Ewing, Ganley, Tom Jones, Karger, Lindaman, etc. So, I did some research
and discovered that his T206 set includes a Joe Doyle error card and a TyCobb/Ty Cobb back card.

Russell's T206 set comprises 497 cards (no Plank or Wagner). He collected his T-cards in 1910-1911,
and he got them directly from the Piedmont packs as he was a heavy smoker at the early age of 14.

Now for my original point. Living near the greater Atlanta area and being an avid Base Ball fan, Rus-
sell most likely acquired his Ty Cobb card sometime in 1911.

This timeline is reinforced by the fact that the Ty Cobb caption is printed with Brown ink. By 1912,
American Litho. switched to printing their BB card captions in Blue ink.


Regards,
TED Z

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Posted By: Scott Dango

You are truly a living encyclopedia!

Very good stuff as usual!

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

Ted,

that collection you speak of with the cobb/cobb back - does that now bring the cobb/cobb back total to 13 now, or was that particular example included in the widely thought figure of 12 cobb/cobb backs known?

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Ted--

Thanks for responding. I'm glad to hear the "D.C. Doyle" is good.

We've not met as the Pa. show just isn't conducive to public transportation (and more of a drive than I wish to make). Hope you make the Net 54 dinner in Cleveland.

Mark

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Russell Cobb is independent of the 12-card Ty Cobb find.

I can't say for sure that it is th 13th, or whatever number....as, I'm sure that eventually more of these Ty Cobb cards
will be found.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

I believe when Rob Lifson made the find of five fresh-to-the-hobby examples in 1997, it brought the total to eleven. Since then I think one other example was discovered. When the Nagy example was sold, people started talking about there now being 13, but I find it hard to believe that the Nagy example was not in people's tallies of the total #. He was obviously well known in the hobby.

JimB

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Posted By: Scot

Ted,

Can you provide any info on the condition of these seven legitimate examples?

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will email you the info.

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Posted By: Scott B.

Ted, is this a top secret of not disclosing the condition of those seven legit Doyle?

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Hi Ted,

About twenty years ago Bob Lemke wrote an article in SCD about the Magie and Doyle alterations and that through investigation it was found that the alleged source was from Flint, MI. Do you know if there is any additional information on that story?

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Posted By: dan mckee

Ted there is another legit one that an aquaintance of both you and I has that you didn't mention. Dan.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The suspect from Michigan has gone "underground" or in "hibernation" ! ?

DAN
What makes you think I didn't account for our mutual "aquaintance".....Mr. Private ?

TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

I guess he could be #5 or #6 ah? I didn't think about that. Dan.

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Posted By: Steve

Do you know if there is any additional information on that story?


I remember reading a few years ago that someone 'created' a bunch of these
is this what you are talking about? Or did I completely misunderstand you?


Steve

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

functioning as student and professor to solve the puzzle. I marvel as you try and unwrap these riddles and am quite impressed by all being brought to the table - as there are many elements to balance - each of which must fall into place. I truely believe you'se will eventually define most if not all of the time line and production details - it seems you are closer than just a year ago - perhaps just one or two mysteries away. Thank you for your efforts. I'm happy to ride along as I chase the monster and hope to add something when my knowledge increases. I'm basically just accumulating cards and information for now. The study will intensify as I taste more of the monster's blood - or not - that's the joy of answering to no-one but myself. Please continue to conjecture and opine. I'd send a cash donation to support the effort but then I couldn't pay for the 300 cards I'm still lacking. BTW - Ted - u da man - bring the NOISE

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Posted By: Scot

My understanding is that the Flint, MI man bought a hoard of J. Doyle (N.Y.) examples from Larry Fritsch, attempted alteration and was later arrested. My source for this is a former T206 collector who spoke with Mr. Fritsch in the 2004-05 time frame.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I am not too sure that I dig all your jive......but, I like the way you say it.

And, donations aren't necessary....we have a FREE association of ideas here.

TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

This is a little off the beat but I was set up right by the front door at the Philadelphia show where the fake Doyle came in to Mr. Mint. SGC slabbed it and I believe Keith O bought it. The funny thing was, after Alan Rosen paid the gent in cash, the guy came to my table shaking like a leaf! I remember it like it was yesterday! He stated "I am a dealer, I just sold a big card" and preceeded to pull cards out of my case. He spent a decent chunk with me so I was happy. I saw the card briefly after it was slabbed and at a quick glance, it looked ok. Anyway, I just thought it was funny how the guy was shaking after selling it, he should have ran out of the show I guess.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I attended that Show in downtown Philadelphia and I recall the buzz in the crowd regarding the SGC graded Doyle walk-in
that you are talking about. And, it's my understanding that K. Theodore Olberman bought it from Al Rosen.
And, as we found out later, that graded Doyle was a fake.

Boy, did you luck out on that deal. That, I didn't know.

But, the story gets better....a 2nd Doyle error walked-in that day in a binder full of T206's. This one, as it turned out was
a real Doyle error.

Did you see this card ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Tell me old buddy.....what is the probability of TWO Joe Doyle error cards walking-in to the same BB card Show on the same day ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: dan mckee

I missed the 2nd one Ted! WOW! that is cool! probability of 2 walking in is close to zero! Yes the SGC one was bad. K got his money back I believe. Dan

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Didn't Levi purchase the second Doyle at the show???


Be well Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Yes, indirectly he did.

Be good ole buddy.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Please call me when convenient....something important to discuss with you.

I'd call you, but I can't find your Tel #.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It's virtually impossible to find this Joe Doyle error card. And, if you do find one, you can't really afford
to buy it, anyhow.

So may I suggest a lesser option, why not settle for a Joe Doyle card with the "printer's mark" ?

In the scan here of the Joe Doyle card is seen a printer's mark just to the right of the dot following the
"Y" (pointer identifies this mark). However minor this mark may appear, it exactly lines up with the start
of the "N" in the "Nat'l" variation....and, indeed is a remnant of the "N".

Apparently, this remnant mark remained on the printing plate for the caption for a while after American
Lithographic initially erased the "Nat'l" lettering.
Subsequently, they removed this printer's mark, resulting in three variations of the Joe Doyle card......

Doyle, N.Y. Nat'l

Doyle, N.Y. .

Doyle, N.Y.



This mark can be found on approx. 12% of the all the Joe Doyle cards. So, by owning this variation, you
can rationalize in your mind that you own an "abbreviated" Joe Doyle error card....

Hey guys, this works for me....





............................PRINTER's MARK......./\............




TED Z

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Posted By: Red

There is a 4th variation too missing the last period and the top right part of the Y. In the census you did a while ago on the backs for the common Doyles what were the different backs available for the odd print variations.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I have the 2nd dot variation as well, it counts as my Nat'l variation as I will never own that one.