T206/T215 Help Please

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Posted By: peter ullman

CHECK OUT THIS AUCTION ON EBAY:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-WILDFIRE-SCHULTE-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ320328276852

I can't tell if this card has been rebacked...as there are remnants of some black written back on the card as well. The design doesn't look familiar to me...what do you guys think...t206 made into t215 or some kind of super valuable printing freak that one of y'all will have snapped up by the time I wake up...or better yet...a link between the 2 sets...t215-1 is t206 too!!!


edited link to be smaller...and to add peter's name back to the post

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Peter, good catch. This card is interesting in many ways. First - should this have been graded as a T215 with an obviously different back showing through? 2nd - Is the card rebacked? 3rd - If we look beneath the surface of other T215's will we see the black printing from anotherstyle of back? 4th - The blue ink appears to have been applied after the paper loss occurred? 5th - what kind of back does the black ink represent?

Rick

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

If a fellow bought that, broke it out and soaked it... would he have anxiety that it would end up in 2 pieces?? If so, isn't that based on the belief that it my well be rebacked? Someone will buy that, I'll steer clear.

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Posted By: Tim Sanders

back on Oct 19th. There were 4 of them for sale as a lot, and I think the suspicions were raised then. I liked the idea of a Coupon back.

The other side of the coin- they all had a lot of back damage and paper on the back, possibly from a notebook- could it be from something on the other side of the notebook page that wasn't removed?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

All T215 (Red Cross) cards are printed with BLUE ink captions on the front. This one is
not a legit Red Cross card.

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Posted By: leon

Type 1 T215 Red Crosses have brown printing on the front...regards

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Posted By: leon

I think Tim has it right on - the Dougherty from the same seller has what look like a nice regular set of the blue lines from notebook paper. The black print at the bottom looks like its on a thicker bleb, as if it might be the back of whatever happened to be stuck to the other side of the page.

Dougherty link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-PATSY-DOUGHERTY-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ260338851972


Mike



edited link size

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for informing me, as I have never had the T215-type 1 cards. All the T215 cards that I
have are Type 2's.

Therefore, I retract my statement that this Schulte is "not a legit T215 card".

But, now we have a very interesting prospect, as illustrated by this card, and that is....T215-1
cards are originally T206 Piedmont's that were converted to Red Cross cards by "add-backing"
the RED CROSS back on them at American Litho.

Does anyone want to shave the back of their T215 to further confirm this ? ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I can't believe that ad backing was intentionally practiced by American Litho.

It would be a lot of trouble to intentionally add a layer of paper to their printing stock. It would be easier to print from new stock. There was no paper shortage in 1909.

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Posted By: peter ullman

the residual design...in black/blue doesn't look like piedmont to me...if anything coupon...but no other backs look like that...if I'm not mistaken.

Oops...I must've been in Croatia when these cards were originally discussed back in Oct!

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Posted By: David Smith

OK, since I am not an expert, I can only say/add the following;

1) Captions on T206, T213 Type 1 and T215 Red Cross Type 1 all come with brown/sepia printing on the front.

So, based on that, I can see how somebody could have skinned a/some Red Cross card/s and then added the backs to other cards.

As Ted Z says, the Dougherty card looks like it might have a Piedmont back underneath the Red Cross back.

The problem I am having, however, is with the Schulte card. Underneath the Red Cross back is the brown or black printing of a different company, maybe a Cycle or Coupon back. However, based on the designs at each corner, it can NOT be a Cycle or Coupon Type 1 card.

If it is not a Coupon Type 1 card, then it COULD be a Coupon Type 2 or 3 but THEN the captions on the FRONT of the card would be in blue, as would a Red Cross Type 2 card.

So, the Schulte card, on the front, LOOKS like a T206, T213 Type 1 or a T215 Type 1 but the back looks like a Coupon Type 2 or Type 3 with the Red Cross back over top of that.

David

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Posted By: peter ullman

David...agreed...also...If these were removed from a scrapbook, ledger or whatever...and there were residual paper loss from a card on the other side of the page...it wouldn't be oriented this way...you wouldn't even see it because the back from the opposing card would be facing the opposite way...confusing indeed!



pete

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Please edit the URL in your initial post with this abbreviated one......

http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-WILDFIRE-SCHULTE-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ320328276852

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Posted By: deleted

this card was in a lot of 7 psa-1 red crosses i bought about 6 months ago.









i bought the lot from london venture, sold 6 of them (all on the bst here to 2 board members) and kept one (latham). i was a bit worried about the backs when i made the buy, but in person, its clear that they used to be glued to some kind of notebook. hope this helps.

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

It kinda looks like an old mill back with a red cross over it. I am pretty sure a Schulte type 1 Red Cross is worth more than a Schulte Old Mill but not enough to ruin a Red Cross.

The McGraw in B&L was a type 1 and I think the type 1s are just a little tougher than type 2s. Maybe like 60/40 or a tad more.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I agree, Jim. But what about a T215 that had a front with a paint stain, rust stain, or a huge scrape across it so the front is about destroyed, but the back remains in good shape???

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Frank-very good point. Probably exact situation.

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Posted By: Scot

Schulte

I don't think it is a T206 Old Mill back on Schulte. Old Mill has an unfilled triple-loop corner design.

I agree with David S. The back under Red Cross looks like Coupon Type II or III, whereas the front is T206 or Coupon Type I--which makes little sense.

Maybe the card was double rebacked, or re-re-backed. Strange.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well what about 4 or 5 of us kicking in, buying it, busting it out for a soaking, then reslabbing and selling whatever's left; splitting up the proceeds??

I'll put in 20% or 25% of the cost; anyone else game?

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Posted By: S Gross

How it happened, I have NO clue.
However, I think if the card was soaked, both the "black" corners would come off, and you'd be left with a solid Red Cross back.


Frank, put me in for 20-25%

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Scott!

Now we need 2 or 3 more. Then we'll be on our way to solving this.


FW

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Posted By: peter ullman

I'm in for 25%

pete ullman

I don't think it will soak off to reveal a clean red cross back...for the record...but I hope I'm wrong.

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Posted By: Scot

Scott G.,

I think you solved the mystery. Red Cross is the original back and somebody stuck a Coupon Type II or III on top. I was thinking the other way around (i.e. that the original back was Coupon) since it is almost unthinkable from today's perspective that somebody would attempt to rebrand a Red Cross as a Coupon.

Frank,

Best of luck with the soak.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SCOT R

This comment of yours is may not be so "unthinkable" back in 1910-1913......

"....it is almost unthinkable from today's perspective that somebody would attempt to rebrand a Red Cross as a Coupon."

The RED CROSS tobacco brand dates back to 1870 when the P. Lorillard Co. established a Tobacco manufacturing plant
in New Jersey (Factory #10, 5th Dist.). But, we know that T215 Red Cross premiums were inserted in tobacco products
that were marketed in the Louisiana area. I find this quite strange as it violates the Federal Tobacco laws of that period.

Perhaps, some one (or some entity) re-backed, or re-branded (whatever we want to call it) with COUPON Type 2 (or 3)
backs.....back then.

Or, Red Cross backs were re-backed on top of COUPON's. I, for one, cannot tell if the hint of the Coupon (2 or 3) style
of frame is above or below the Red Cross back from these scans.

I'm tempted to buy this Schulte card....crack it open....and, examine it closely under magnification.


TED Z

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Posted By: peter ullman

alrighty boys...I pulled the trigger and bought it...i'll keep y'all updated.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

And I was about one away from having a consortium together...

Thanks for taking it down, good luck with it. Give it a nice soak!!

Frank.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Congrats Peter..

Are you for sure gonna crack open and soak this card??

Marty

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Posted By: peter ullman

I hear Schulte swam like a dolphin...we shall see! I'm skeptical that soaking will reveal a nice clean red cross back...if this appears to be the case when I look at it...it will require some thought. I am a type collector and I "need" a t215 red cross...but why on earth would anyone adhere a coupon type II/III back on it...and if Ted's supposition appears to hold water...it may be better to leave as is. Oh...if George Bush had had such difficult decisions to make...dare to wonder?

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Posted By: David Smith

If George Bush and his gang of ill repute had any say in the decision making process for whether you (or anyone else) should buy this card, I am sure it would go something like this.

"Buying this card is a no brainer. It is a slam dunk. Our secret intelligence tells us that lurking under the Schulte/Red Cross front back combo is a T206 Honus Wagner with Sweet Caporal back.

So, all you have to do is buy the card and soak off the front and back and voila, mission accomplished, you will be a baseball card millionaire. It will be a short fight with minimal cost and collateral damage but, in the end, it will be worth it because a Honus Wagner card will be liberated. Afterwards, you will be vindicated and many people will thank you."

David

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Posted By: peter ullman

If I soak it...and there is no Wags underneath...Can I get a "do-over?"

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

IF you soak it??? Don't you mean WHEN you soak it?

Scott Gross and I were definitely in to buy it, and I think Ted Z and Leon were going to join in, that would have been the 4 needed for us to get it, and there be a guaranteed soaking.

I'm more anxious for the mail to get this card to you, Peter, than I am for cards I'm expecting to arrive!!

Please do a soaking photo shoot!!!

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Posted By: peter ullman

But Frank...aren't you curious why anyone would adhere a coupon back over a t215? Could Ted be right...that this was done by the actual factory back in the day. If this is the case...wouldn't it better to keep it in its present state as documentation?

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Posted By: leon

As I told Frank in an email this morning, my guess is that when you get the card in hand it will become more obvious what is going on with that back. I guess it was pasted in a scrapbook, or stacked with other cards and somehow the other card's back got stuck on it...

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Posted By: david Poses

Having seen this card in person, and still in possession of the Latham with the same scrapbook/notebook paper glued on to the back, I'm pretty certain that this isn't a reback job...

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Posted By: peter ullman

David...you haven't attempted to soak it?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER

Gee, you beat us to the Schulte card....and, spared us the hassle of who was going to "operate" on it.

FRANK W was getting together a "consortium" to purchase this card; and, that would have been very interesting.

Before you soak it, can you use an exacto-knife to very delicately scrape the dual backs, and tell us whether the
Red Cross is over (or under) the Coupon Type 2 (or 3) back.

Also, we expect that you will have some one film this operation and the video put on You Tube.....

TED Z

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Posted By: peter ullman

ted...i expect with magnification(if that's even necessary) I should be able to tell which back came 1st. Hopefully I won't have to take a knife to it...but we shall see.

You all can fly in to St Paul, MN...and observe the operation...no junior mints allowed!

pete ullman

ps: I will likely document w/photos.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for the invite....but, I think us Pennsylvania dudes are not really appreciated in Vikings-land at the moment....

TED Z

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Posted By: david Poses

I woudn't know how to soak it even if I wanted to soak it. Assuming you go through with your proposed operation and it turns out to be not a Red Cross, what happens to my Latham? Will PSA buy it back from me for a big pile of money? Its currently on the BST. Should I hold off on selling it?

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Posted By: peter ullman

personally...I have no doubts it/they is/are red cross/crosses. IT's more a matter of whether the debris from removal from a scrap book will come off cleanly or whether there is already back damage on the red cross part.

Soaking it shouldn't cause any harm...if done carefully. I may not get the result I'm hoping for...but worst case is that the debris will not soak off...and I'll be left with the same card I purchased.

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Posted By: Sean

Peter,
I'll come in from Highland Park...let me know when it arrives; I will bring the beer and distilled water, if you can bring the card and your perfect 10's!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Peter, I'd put him in a glass of water one night, then wake up the next morning and see how he is. Water is slow and safe on T206s, Exacto blades... be careful with 'em.


As for a factory reback, absolutely inconceivable. American Litho did PRINTING. They didn't fool with paper manufacturing. Printers print. No way that is a factory reback.

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Posted By: Scott Mt. Joy

Ok finaly got a chance to check the T215 Type 1's that i have and sure enough one of them has the same thing. It's in two spots, bottom right and middle top border. I can say that looking at the card it was pasted over the red cross back and not under it on mine. I would bet soaking would remove it as well as the lined paper thats also on back (not something I was confident in trying). Posting scans-

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Most curious. Thanks for posting that, Scott.

We look at those lines and think notebook paper. Scott, can you measure the distance between the lines, place a piece of notebook paper next to the card for a scan??

Could a supply of "Red Cross" cards have been rebacked as "Coupons"? Did Coupon cigarettes take over Red Cross??

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

It looks to me like someone "reused" an old scrapbook and glued down Red Cross cards on top of other cards (maybe non-sport cards?).

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Posted By: peter ullman

Frank...I agree with you...definitely not rebacked...I can't wait to get mine and go swimming...polar bear club here in mn.

pete

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Posted By: peter ullman

Well...I just received my t215/t213 type II/III Schulte card and I picked up some distilled water and came home. Under initial inspection...it's evident that the corners where the residual coupon backs remain attached and an area towards the lower center have paper covering the red cross back that should soak off...but there are major areas of paper loss from the t215 print...so...I'm not going to soak it.

I still find the remnant t213 corners curious as to how they got there...and if I soak it...it'll just be a t215 type I with back damage. Additionally...it's in a PSA holder which brutally enhances it's value.

pete ullman

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Posted By: david Poses

yep. look at it this way- it's already a psa-1 t215 with back damage. can't get much worse. as it appears that these aren't part of some conspiracy or extremely scarce rebacked subset, i'm going to put my latham from the same lot on ebay. i think. this is not a paid endorsement and i'm not a professional spokesman.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well the goal was to get one of these soaked... Ratz, Peter. Wish you'd let us buy it, soak it, then sell it to you. I can't see how soaking a back damaged Red Cross will hurt it any. It could only help.

David, please email me when you post yours on eBay, so I can get a bid in. If I win I'll bust and soak. Then post results here.

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Posted By: peter ullman

Frank...damn you! I soaked her last night and the result was as I expected. She's drying peacefully and I will post pics soon.