Zeenut related poll

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Posted By: robert a

I'm not that interested in sending cards in for grading myself, but after having a conversation with a friend, I'm interested in your opinions.





Please answer YES or NO. Also give a reason if you like.



Should grading companies assign number grades to Zeenuts with the coupon cut off (not including the cards that never had coupons of course)?



My opinion is NO, but I'll keep an open mind.







Thanks for your responses.



Rob

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Posted By: Doug

Considering part of the card is missing, I would also say no.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I don't see why not, so long as the holder indicates that the card is missing the coupon and the population reports differentiate between the two

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Yes.

And the card shouldn't be docked a zillion grades for lacking the coupon.

The card came with a coupon attached. Card + Coupon. When you cut off the coupon, you still have the card. I'll concede that some kids must have chewed the coupons off...


And as I type this I'm listening to my Western Kentucky Hilltoppers beat Georgia!!!!! 67-63. 5th time WKU has beaten an SEC team at home. SEC teams don't like to take a chance on visiting Bowling Green. WKU beat then #3 Louisville just a few days ago! Go Toppers!!

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Posted By: Anonymous

Congratulations on the win! Now I just hope the Bearcats can do the same when they play Louisville.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

from a Cardinal fan..........

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Posted By: leon

No


Longer answer- I am ok with either of these:

1. Number grade with caveat of (handcut) on flip
2. AUT only...which is what I prefer...but is really senseless...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

What can't they do a HC grade, like they do with miscuts?

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Posted By: Cat

Yes

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Posted By: Fred C

A Zeenut with the coupon cut off is a card that has been altered. I don't think that a numerical grade should be assigned to these cards. In fact, the grading companies can be pretty off the wall with their grading of any card. I think that all cards should be certified AUTHENTIC or ALTERED. Let the people purchasing and selling the cards determine the grade. Nobody's going to agree anyway.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

As long as they are grading strip cards, I have no problem with grading Zeenuts missing the coupons.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Yes

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Posted By: boxingcardman

But it does raise an interesting side issue, which is that last I tried, SGC would not numerically grade an Exhibit card with the coupon removed (some have corner coupons). Seems to me it should be a consistent approach, not some coupon bearing issues grade and some don't.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Glen V

NO

What's next - part of an R300 labeled: George C. Miller - Cancelled - PSA 9?

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Posted By: robert a

Thanks for some good responses.

You folks that answered YES.

How do you know if the bottom of the card has been straightened later or if it's the original tear?

Rob

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Posted By: JimB

Yes, just identify the lack of coupon.

You can tell later cuts by toning on edges, the roll, uneven corner wear, etc.
JimB

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Straightened later vs original tear...


Doesn't matter, Robert, not a distinction. Card + Coupon. if the cut or tear is down there in the coupon part, then it isn't up in the card area and doesn't affect the card, whether the tear or cut is new or old. Golly, if I took a ZeeNut card with coupon still attached, and carefully cut them apart, a sixteenth of an inch into the coupon side so that the card side wasn't affected, then I think the Card is in fine shape, with a sliver of coupon still attached.

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Posted By: robert a

Jim,

Are you saying that you think the grading companies are actually trying to differentiate between cards that have been trimmed later on the bottom and cards that had the coupon removed 80 years ago.

I don't think so.

Rob

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Posted By: robert a

Frank,

Isn't the bottom of the card part of the criteria that the grading companies base the grade on?

Should I be able to improve my grade (with any issue) by cutting the bottom of it?

Rob

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Posted By: leon

"You can tell later cuts by toning on edges, the roll, uneven corner wear, etc.
JimB"


What percentage of the time, be it 100%, 99.5%, 99.2% etc, do you feel this can be told? This is a friendly question, from a friend, all in the name of good debate. best regards

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Robert, we have pointless circumlocution if you maintain that the coupon is part of the card. I don't think it is, and if you insist it is then discussing the cutting or tearing is pointless.

If you can accept that the card of the ball player and the coupon were printed simultaneously on one piece of cardboard for insertion with the candy product, then we can get somewhere. Card + Coupon. If the coupon is cut off, the card remains. And it would matter not when it is cut. The slabbing folks should grade the Card. And I'm ok with them grading the Card + Coupon, too, but not only.

I doubt if B18 blankets are graded. if they are, should the slabbing folks require all of that blue and white paper tape to be present on the back of the B18 for it to be graded? I doubt it. If it is, do they then want all of the paper wrapping that was attached to that to be present?? Where does it end???

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Posted By: Andrew

In my opinion Zeenuts with coupon removed should only receive an authentic grade. I also think that cut strip cards, cut exhibits etc should also only receive an authentic grade. I guess I am in the minority in my thinking.

To me the cards have been altered, thus eliminating them from qualifying for any grade except authentic.


Andrew

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Posted By: Matthew

AUTH grade only.

Hey Frank, the SBC has been getting overlooked for a long time. Those WKU teams (mens & womens) have been tearing it up for years now.

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Posted By: robert a

Frank,

Yes I do maintain that the coupon was a part of the original card.

I don't however consider B18s to be cards and wouldn't compare paper "wrapping" to cutting a piece off of the original printed matter.

On the other hand, I realize that zeenuts could present unusual circumstances considering the coupons were supposed to be removed.

I just don't think grading companies can keep the kind of standards that they would like to keep grading zeenuts with no coupons.


Rob

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Posted By: Andrew

Even if you only define the "card" as the photo, and exclude the coupon from being part of the "card," in my opinion when the coupon is cut off that is a hand cut alteration on the bottom edge of the "card" that should result in at most an authentic grade.

This is a very interesting discussion,

Andrew

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I understand your thought process on it all, Robert. I just have a different view on it.

Andrew, if the cut severing the card and the coupon was down into the coupon a 1/16th of an inch, wouldn't all of the card still be there, then? How could that be graded down any more than a card with more of the coupon, or half of the coupon, or 7/8ths of the coupon, or eventually all of the coupon?

Really, the slabbing guys should grade anything they grade authentic, and then ad a numerical grade for others. If it isn't authentic they shouldn't grade it in the first place. As for strip cards, the intent was for the cards to be cut apart at the store, not at the factory. I've long thought the slabbing guys were unduly pickyashell about that. And that reminds me of my belief that some folks are way too torn up about slab numbers, and not concerned enough about the history of the card inside nor the player thereon. Maybe I've got it wrong, and should develop concern for slab numbers and population reports.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Does anybody know if the grading Co's will grade D381's without the coupon or do they just get an Authentic grade when the kewp is clipped? Seems like a good comparison.
-Rhett

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Grade them both ways but expressly note the rarer one on the flip. In the case of Zeenuts, where the vast majority of the cards have no coupons, if the coupon is intact SGC notes it as such. It should all have to do with how people collect. The vast majority of Zeenut collectors are pleased with and collect cards without the coupons. It makes sense to grade them.

Strip cards are another one where the cards should be numerically graded. They were used as intended by the customer. If the cards are full, grade them; if not, authenticate only. I have a number of graded strip cards ranging from vg to near mint. It's all about what you like. I happen to like them displayed in SGC holders with the black custom gaskets.

Also doesn't matter when the cut was made. If the card is as it was intended, grade it!

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: leon

I sent my D381 Smokey Joe into SGC about 3-4 yrs ago and they wouldn't grade it. Since then they have changed their policy and will grade them without the coupon. They said they would grade that card of mine for free now....but I haven't sent it in. regards

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Posted By: Andrew

What if there is some "extra" paper from the coupon still on a Zeenut. So the full photo is present, and a portion of the coupon is still attached (but not the entire coupon). Does this "extra" paper factor into the grade of the card? Frank seems to think it does not count for the purposes of grading. Is this correct? Do SGC and PSA agree? How about a card with very sharp top corners, full photo, and what is left of the coupon has been cut with scissors to look like a mountain range is still attached to the bottom of the card. Is this a high grade SGC 84+ because top corners are sharp and the full "card" is intact? Or is it some lesser grade? What lesser grade? I would get around this guessing game by having all cut cards only be able to receive an authentic grade.

Andrew

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Andrew, I don't know if it counts or not... I'm not very wise in the ways of grading.

But I do think that the grading companies should grade the card part of a ZeeNut, and if all of the card is there (which does not include the coupon) then it seems to me they should grade it... even with a number. Hell's bells, if you send a T206 in with a piece of the corner missing, where it is worn, I'd think SGC would give it a 10. Why does a T206 missing a bit of a corner get a 10, but a ZeeNut missing stuff below the card that was intended to be cut... why does that, at best, get an "A"?

I do know that they misidentify cards, sometimes. I do think that folks rely on slab numbers instead of what's in the slab; on population reports that can't be correct (because a few of us collectors break the little guys out, and some folks cross over grading). Generally, if it is an issue I know about, I find that I know more about the card than the grading companies. For instance I currently have a white border tobacco card in a slab that is identified as "T206" (they got that right) of "Randall" "throwing". Randall is a Milwaukee minor leaguer in the set, and it looks like a portrait to me, no arms, no ball, no throwing. There are worse examples of mistakes. Maybe the Gretzky T206 and the Doyle impossible back cards are the most glaring examples.