E94 Young

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Posted By: Matt

thanks for the emails.

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Posted By: Matt

Here is the card. It is currently offered in the Huggins & Scott auction:

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Posted By: leon

Do you have more info on this? regards

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Posted By: cmoking

have you contacted Huggins & Scott with your suspicions or information?

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Posted By: Matt

I originally posted the image of this card here asking for more opinions on what, if anything, was wrong with the bottom right corner. I received two emails from board members, both opining that the bottom right corner had been rebuilt. At that point, I removed the image so as to give H&S time to respond. H&S has decided that they are going to leave the listing as it is despite concerns about the bottom right corner.

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Posted By: cmoking

Thanks for the response. Did the board members you had contact with see the card in person or are their opinions based on the scan? Thanks again.

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Posted By: Bob

Yes, everyone needs to boycott this one card and spend all their money on the other wonderful cards they have in their auction

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Posted By: Matt

With Leon's permission, I am posting the email H&S sent explaining their position:

"after speaking to our President, Bill Huggins, here is how we are going to
handle this. Unfortunately, we are not a third party authenticator. They are
the experts and while any cards that are ungraded, we do our best to
describe the condition, including if we feel a card has been trimmed (there
are many in the auction that we have stated as such). However, when a card
is professionally graded, we are not in the business to "regrade" cards. If
we were, anytime we disagree with a grade from one of the grading companies
(which there are many), we would just say "this card has been graded a VG 3
by PSA, however it is really an EX 5, in our opinion."
PSA will absolutely buy the card back from the final winning bidder if it
can be proven to them that they made a mistake. They will buy it back at the
final sale price from the auction, again, provided it can be proven to them
that they errantly slabbed the card. The process at PSA for them to slab
cards, has the card running through multiple hands and multiple checks and
balances. Since they are the experts, we are going to leave the card as is."

If I have breached some sort of confidentiality by posting this then please let me know and I will remove it.

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Posted By: leon

I think it's a good explanation of their point of view.....if anyone gets upset we can pull it....but I don't see a problem with it....

edited to add....without having the card in person and being able to put a light behind it, or a loupe to it, it's pretty hard to see an issue with that corner...though it's more pointed than the others...To me the scan is inconclusive though I am not an expert on rebuilt corners....(have seen several others though)...

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Posted By: Matt

Leon - I agree. I certainly am not well versed enough in rebuilt corners to be able to discern one conclusively from a scan which is why I posted originally; to get feedback from those who were. Hopefully one of them, or someone else who has a well educated eye (paging Kevin) can chime in here.

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

I guess the only reason for my post here is to confirm what Matt has posted. I did respond to his email and I also think Leon is exactly right - without seeing the card in proper lighting, it will be very difficult to tell anything.

Also, I have no problem with Matt posting my response.

While I'm here, I may as well make a shameless plug that our auction does begin TODAY at 4:00pm EST.

Best of luck and please, continue to ask questions about any and all lots - we feel that the best way to make sure everyone is on the same page is to ask questions first.

Josh



www.hugginsandscott.com

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Posted By: JimB

While I am no expert on rebuilt corners, I don't see how somebody could make such a determination via a scan. By that scan, it looks like it could NOT be rebuilt to me since a 100 year old caramel stain comes all the way down to the corner. How can somebody rebuild that?
JimB

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Maybe I should do this with cards I want to buy in all up coming auctions. I think this thread is unfair to both the consignor and Huggins and Scott. Which 2 anonymous board members have told you this? How do they know and what is their expertise in making this claim? This thread is highly irresponsible at this point.

I think the email from H&S was the more than acceptable.

Greg

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Posted By: Brian

I agree with Greg.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

The fellows over at H&S handled this properly. I always enjoyed working with them in the past, both personally and professionally. Their positive, easy-going attitudes and highly accessible customer service relations leaves no mystery why this firm continues to grow at the rate it has.

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Posted By: Bob

Obviously my post was tongue in cheek as this is one of the color variations I need and intend to bid on. Just wanted to clear that up, I have no idea if the corner has been rebuilt or not, I just need the card.

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Posted By: Paul

I don't think there's enough evidence at this point to say that there's anything wrong with the card, or that H&S has a duty to amend its listing. But I don't really like their policy of not second guessing a grader. Sometimes, it is undeniable that a grader has made a mistake -- like with the T206 Doyle that Keith Olberman purchased. When the error is clear, even through the holder, I don't think a seller should perpetuate the error by selling the card.

I also think an auction house can get an incredible amount of well earned respect when it describes a particular card as being overgraded -- or at least points out a flaw in the card that some might regard as inconsistent with the grade (for example, "Displays beautifully. Professionally graded VG3, but does have a pinhole at the top."). This kind of description shows that the auction house has enough expertise to question a grader, and at the same time has the integrity to point out the flaws in the product it is selling.

Having said all that, I must also say I have bought cards from Huggins & Scott and have always been satisfied. I have no reason to doubt their integrity and I suspect that in the case of a clearcut error that they might modify their policy.

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

Paul,

absolutely. We certainly handle each situation on a case by case basis, however, in this case, I am not sure that an error was clearly made.
Thank you for the input and the trust.

Josh

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Posted By: quan

tbob i really need an e94 young but i will stay away for you .

not sure about corner being rebuilt, but i'd like more bottom border on my e94s than this one. i've owned 40-50 e94s the last few years and never had a card cut like this one. they usually have biggest white borders of any caramel sets.

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Huggins and Scott's position on third party graded cards is unacceptable to me. It is the duty of every seller or auctioneer to accurately describe the material they are offering, regardless of any grading, certification, or authenticating performed by anyone else. This is especially true in the light of the numerous and obvious errors that have recently come to light on this forum and elsewhere. Does their policy give them carte blanche to overlook such obvious mistakes as the N172 Kelly and the trimmed N300 that we have discussed here?

I'm not commenting on the specific situation with this card (it looks fishy to me, as well), but clearly they have a duty to accurately describe their merchandise, regardless of the holder it's in.

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Posted By: Andrew Saboley

I wouldn't have a problem bidding on it, since it is already in a holder that isn't frosted. You never know where a card has been. Maybe the bottom right corner was resting inside grandma's bible up in the attic for years while the rest of the card was sticking out exposed?

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Posted By: MikePugeda

If the lower right corner has been built-up, whoever did it did a hell of a job. My question is, if in fact that corner was "worked on", why not go the extra mile and touch up the other corners? It doesn't make sense to me to touch up only one corner.

To those that think it has been built up, what is your rationale behind your conclusions? I can't see anything from the scan. The corner is a little sharper than the others, but not by much and stranger things have happened.

Enlighten me please.

Mike

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Posted By: George Dreher

I noticed that pages 51 thru 66 are bound into my catalog twice (consecutively). Kind of neat!

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Posted By: Alan

Huggins & Scott have, if not the most, then one of the most highest integrity of all auction houses on earth.

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

Ed,
I'm sorry that you feel our policy is unacceptable. We do everything we can to accurately describe the merchandise. As I stated in my email to Matt, we are not Professional authenticators. I'm not sure I can 100% positively identify a "rebuilt" corner. I don't use black light to look at our cards, primarily because that is what we pay PSA or SGC to do. I have only been in this business for 23-years and Bill Huggins has only been around for 32-years of this industry. I think we both feel that it is important to describe what we sell to the best of our ability. For us to regrade cards that have been professionally graded is not a practice that we would like to get into. If we were selling a card that PSA graded a VG 3, but we both felt the card is really an EX-MT 6, should I describe the card as a PSA 3, but a Josh Wulkan 6? The masses do not pay for Josh Wulkan Graded cards, they pay for PSA graded cards - that's why people send them hundreds of thousands of cards per month. The issue with this card is to be taken up by the eventual winner of the card and PSA, if the winner feels that PSA has made an error. If you still feel that our policy is unacceptable to you, I would be happy to discuss it further, via a phone call. Please feel free to contact me directly at your convienence. My home/office number in California is 510-530-1156.
thanks,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations


www.hugginsandscott.com

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

George,
I'm sorry for the printing error. I will make mention of it to our printer. If you would like to send me your address, I will be happy to send you a correct copy. You can email me at:
josh@hugginsandscott.com

thanks,
Josh

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Posted By: George Dreher

Josh, none of the pages are missing. There are actually an extra 15+ duplicated pages. I am very pleased with the catalog. Thanks!

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Josh,
Thank you for your reply. As I stated in my post, I take no position on the E94 Young in question. I wouldn't bid on it because it just doesn't look right to me. My issue is with the apparent blind trust in third party authenticators/graders. I don't think that anyone would ask Huggins and Scott to quibble over every grade or half grade they felt was incorrect or to "regrade" every piece that was consigned to them. But I do think that they owe their bidders and consignors an accurate description when an obvious error has occurred. The bidders should be made aware of any obvious alterations or gross overgrading, and, in fairness to the consignor, it should be noted when a card in horribly undergraded. How would Huggins and Scott have handled the trimmed N172 Kelly, slabbed and graded by PSA, that recently came to light had it been offered to them for consignment? Please don't tell me that they would have presented it as is, with no mention of the obvious trimming.

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Posted By: leon

What do you see in that scan of the E94 that makes you think there could be an issue?

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Posted By: Matt

Here is an excerpt from an email Kevin S sent yesterday, posted with his permission:

"There is no way to tell if the corner has been rebuilt from that scan...
I do find it odd that the entire card is toned with exception of the bottom edge. If anything it looks more trimmed or sanded but that could just be the scan. Then again...when a corner has been rebuilt, two sides and both surfaces usually need to be reshaped for it to blend. Think of it like patching a wall or a corner with spackle...the work extends beyond the initial area. A pro card doctor would then rework or finish the areas to cover up the obvious, kinda' like painting and texturing that newly spackled wall."

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Leon,
When I first saw it in the catalog, I thought it was surely trimmed. Now that I see a high resolution scan, I see that the top border size and cut appear to roughly correspond to the bottom border. Still, the wear pattern on the top and bottom edges does not appear (to me) to match that on the side edges. Similarly, the wear pattern on the upper left and lower right corners do not match that on the lower left. Also, as Kevin pointed out. the toning is somewhat inconsistent. As I have said twice now, I'm not insisting that the card is altered. I'm sure there could be a simple and rational explanation for the anomalies I mention above and the card could indeed be properly graded. The point of my posts is to question Huggins and Scott's apparent policy of turning a blind eye to obvious grading company errors. I'm certain that Josh's next post will alleviate all my concerns.

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

Ed,
I guess my only response is that in the case of "obvious" error by a grading company, we would and often do, take it back to them and ask them before we would run it in our auction. I am not convinced, in the case of the E94 Young that we are discussing, that there is an "obvious" error by PSA. This would be evident by the number of people in this thread who do not agree that the card has been altered or trimmed.

Certainly, from an ethical stand point, if a card came to us with such an obvious error by a grading company, we would ask them to please re-evaluate the card, as we are not looking for those kinds of problems within our auction.

I will give you an example of just such a case. About 2 years ago, we were given a 1958 Topps Ted Williams #1 that was graded a MINT 9 by GAI. When examining the card, it appeared that the card may have been dropped on the top edge of the holder, thus making the top corners "dinged" yet it still resided in a MINT 9 holder. I took the card back to Steve Rocchi and showed him the problem. He agreed that it should not be in the holder. I had him contact our consignor and they worked out some satisfactory deal to have the card removed from the market. Whether GAI, PSA or SGC or anyone else, this is the type of action we would take in "obvious" errors.

I hope that clears up any confusion about our policies.

thanks
Josh

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Josh,
Though we seem to be moving in the right direction, your post fails to entirely satisfy my curiosity. Your example begs a few questions: 1) What would you have done if Steve Rocchi had declined to act on the '58 Williams and insisted that it was properly graded? Unlikely, I realize, but bear with me. Or 2) What if the grading company had...gasp...gone out of business and was unavailable to remedy the error? Or 3) What if the holder appeared tampered with? And finally 4) what if the card were in a PRO holder? What would Huggins and Scott have done with the card in any of these circumstances? Would they have rejected the consignment? Would they have auctioned the card with the obvious flaw duly noted in the item description? Or would they have simply washed their hands and sold the card with no mention of the flaw? You see, there is only one wrong answer here.

Perhaps you would be good enough to answer the question I posed in my earlier post: What would Huggins and Scott do if they were offered the PSA graded trimmed N172 Kelly or the PSA graded N300 Shindle with the ad cut off the bottom? What if Joe Orlando refused to stand behind those errors? You simply can't ask me to believe that these cards would offered in your auctions with no qualifiers. If you and your staff have the experience and credentials you claim (which I do not doubt), you should be able to easily detect such obvious problems despite the opinion of any other alleged experts. Again, no one is asking you to split hairs over half a grade, but being up front about these significant mistakes would seem to be critical to a seller's credibility. Sellers should not be allowed to hide behind the mistakes of others and cannot abdicate their responsibility to accurately describe the merchandise they sell.

I invite other auctioneers or ebay sellers to chime in with their answers. Would you sell a card you knew to be counterfeit, altered, or grossly overgraded, just because it had found it's way into a slab that had a number on it?

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Posted By: leon

I doubt Brockelman and Luckey Auctions would auction off an item with a major issue UNLESS we described the major issue in detail. I have seen it work in other auctions but FULL disclosure is paramount. I even sold a card on my website in a PSA 3 holder that I publicly said (on my site) should have graded a 1.5, imo, as it had a big crease down the middle of it... I doubt our auction company would go as far as giving an exact grade we think a card would get. There is no way we will overlook, on purpose, a major issue...holder or not....It's just not the right thing to do....regards

edited to add this has nothing to do with the question on this E94.....it has to do with your question to other auctions concerning certain situations.

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Posted By: Ed Hans

I knew that would be your position. Anyone else?

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Posted By: Josh Wulkan

Ed,
we are ethical people. We do not attempt to deceive anyone, ever. If a clear and obvious mistake was made, we would decline the consignment. Our policy is: If you don't buy a problem, you don't have to sell a problem. This would extend to accepting consignments as well.

I hope this answers your question.
Josh

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Posted By: Ed Hans

Thank you for that clarification.